Why “Autoimmunity” probably doesn’t exist

Sidny

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http://www.discoverymedicine.com/Am...t-pathogens-autoantibodies-molecular-mimicry/

The Concept of the “Autoantibody”
In the early 1900s, antibody production was identified in a range of acute infectious diseases such as diphtheria, tuberculosis, and polio. It was quickly apparent that the human immune system produces antibodies to target pathogen-associated proteins. This knowledge improved diagnostics for acute infection and has formed the basis of vaccine development.
However, antibodies were additionally detected in patients with a range of chronic inflammatory conditions including Grave’s disease, Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, RA, and MS. These antibodies might have been tied to the presence of chronic human pathogens, but at the time, culture-based laboratory techniques could detect only a handful of the microbes now understood to persist in Homo sapiens. The human body was consequently regarded as largely sterile.



Re-evaluating the “Autoantibody”
It follows that patients with autoimmune disease harbor thousands, if not more, pathogens and/or pathobionts whose presence might be tied to “autoantibody” production. This strongly suggests that “autoantibodies” may be normal antibodies created in response to microbiome pathogens.
Indeed, “autoantibodies” are regularly detected in non-autoimmune patients suffering from infection. Berlin et al. (2007) analyzed sera from patients with a range of bacterial, viral, parasitic, and rickettsial infections. Elevated titers of “autoantibodies” including anti-annex in-V, prothrombin, antinuclear antibodies (ANA), anti-Saccharomyces cerevisiae (ASCA), and antiphospholipid antibodies (Anti-PL) were identified in a high percentage study subjects. Indeed, ~39% of subjects harbored elevated titers of at least two of these “autoantibodies.”
Patients in the study by Berlin et al. (2007) presented with acute disease. However, most of the pathogens in the study also survived in persistent forms. For example, anti-annexin-V “autoantibodies” were detected in 80% of patients with hepatitis A, a virus tied to chronic liver cirrhosis. “Autoantibody” production was also associated with H. pylori, S. aureus, Enterobacter, S. pneumonia, Stomatococcus, E.coli, and Klebsiella pneumonia. These pathogens are repeatedly detected in genome-based analyses of human microbiome communities.

It is much more likely that such “autoantibodies” are created in response to these and other chronic, persistent microbiome pathogens as opposed to transient pathogens postulated to “trigger” autoreactive B cells (the hit and run model). Indeed, a growing number of studies demonstrate that acute human pathogens persist in the human microbiome. For example, EBV causes acute mononucleosis, but can additionally persist inside long-lasting human lymphoblastic B cells (Yenamandra et al., 2009). Ebola virus RNA has been detected in men’s semen for up to two years after “recovery” (Fischer et al., 2017). Brodin et al. (2015) found that the lifelong need to control persistent CMV infection caused 10% of T cells in CMV+ individuals to be directed against the virus.
This fits with data obtained by Kriegel/Vieira et al. (2018), who recently tied “autoantibody” production to yet another persistent member of the human microbiome. The team identified pathobiont E. gallinarum in the mesenteric veins, mesenteric lymph nodes, liver, and spleens of mice made genetically prone to autoimmunity. In these mice, E. gallinarum initiated the production of “autoantibodies,” activated T cells, and inflammation. This “autoantibody” production stopped when E. gallinarum’s growth was suppressed with the antibiotic vancomycin.


Discussion

The discovery of the human microbiome has forever changed our understanding of human biology. Humans are superorganisms colonized by trillions of persistent microbes. This human microbiome extends to nearly every human body site, including tissue and blood. Thousands of newly discovered pathogens and/or pathobionts have been detected in these microbiome ecosystems. Even then, the genomes of most bacteria, viruses, and bacteriophages in the human microbiome have yet to be fully characterized. For example, it is estimated that only 2% of viruses on Earth have been sequenced (Anthony et al., 2013).
This increases the likelihood that “autoantibodies” are created in response to chronic microbiome pathogens. Under such conditions, molecular mimicry or structural homology between pathogen and host proteins can result in “collateral damage” towards human tissue. Indeed, a growing body of research has documented “autoantibody” production in response to a range of pathogens/pathobionts. These pathogens are not “triggers” but persist as members of complex microbiome communities.
This opens up new possibilities in “autoimmune” disease research. The concept of the “autoantibody” should be retired in favor of a paradigm that seeks to foster microbiome health, diversity, and balance. Research teams should seek to better characterize and identify microbiome pathogens capable of driving antibody production. The survival mechanisms and activity of such pathogens should also be investigated.

Additionally, there is no need to segregate “autoimmune” diseases from other chronic inflammatory conditions tied to the human microbiome. The “autoimmune” disease research community should collaborate with these related research communities to better identify common trends associated with microbiome dysbiosis.
The situation also calls for a paradigm shift in “autoimmune” disease treatment. The immunosuppressive medications currently prescribed for these conditions palliate symptoms but allow pathogens in the microbiome to spread with greater ease. Indeed, these medications can drive the very microbiome dysbiosis now connected to most “autoimmune” conditions. This helps explain the poor long-term outcomes associated with their use.
In contrast, treatments that support the immune system in “autoimmune” disease would target microbiome pathogens at the root of the disease process. While such treatments induce temporary immunopathology, patients may eventually reach a state of stable remission. Indeed, the cancer community has introduced T cell immunotherapies with great success, despite the fact that patients administered these immunostimulative treatments must endure an immunopathology “cytokine-storm.”


Paradigm shifts often take decades to implement. We cannot afford the luxury of such a timeline. The incidence and prevalence of nearly every chronic inflammatory condition are on the rise, to a point where we are facing a global epidemic of chronic disease. RAND Health estimates that 60% of Americans adults are taking a drug for at least one chronic diagnosis and 12% suffer five or more comorbidities (Buttorff, 2017). We must revise the study and treatment of these diseases to account for the human microbiome. Otherwise, this trend may further accelerate at a significant cost to patients and society as a whole.
 
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Hip

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I subscribe to Prof Paul Ewald's view that infectious pathogens are the major causal factor in autoimmune diseases, cancers and other chronic diseases (including serious mental health diseases).

I suspect that the reason we are seeing a great rise in autoimmune diseases and cancers may be in part because of liberal values and the sexual revolution, as well as because of globalization and global travel.

This is because both liberal values and globalization allow pathogens to spread between human beings, which means that 21st century man may be experiencing viral and pathogenic overload.

Ewald points out that more partners and amorous affairs you have, the more likely you are to catch a pathogen through kissing which may decades later trigger a chronic disease or cancer. Most of the pathogens that live long-term in our bodies are acquired via the respiratory route (eg, saliva), and French kissing is an efficient means to spread these pathogens.

Likewise, globalization allows pathogens which may have been localized to one part of the world to spread to new locations, so that also increases the pathogenic burden on each of us.



Toxic factors of course have also been shown to play a role in triggering disease; but that's nothing new, as most people are aware that various environmental toxins are linked to certain diseases.

But most of the general public are not aware of how the common pathogens in circulation may be the primary cause of a vast array of chronic diseases that make human life miserable.

I think what humanity needs to do is fund a massive multi-billion international research program to figure out how we can eliminate these pathogens from our bodies and from general circulation.
 
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Hip

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I heard of a new hypothesis that all people with autoimmune disease are chimeras. They started out as a twin, but 'absorbed' the other twin very early in pregnancy. It is that 'other' that causes autoimmune disease.

Wow, that is a very interesting hypothesis that I had not heard about before.
 

ScottTriGuy

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The woman who formed the hypothesis also says it is implicated in transgender and homosexuality, and left handedness.

One of my nephews has 2 colours in (both?) eyes, another chimera sign (according to her hypothesis).

Very fascinating.
 

Hip

Senior Member
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18,109
I heard of a new hypothesis that all people with autoimmune disease are chimeras. They started out as a twin, but 'absorbed' the other twin very early in pregnancy. It is that 'other' that causes autoimmune disease.

Looking at this more closely, I am not sure if regular chimerism could generally explain autoimmune disease, as the prevalence of chimerism seems to be low: I read here that there are only 100 known cases worldwide (although I cannot find any info on the precise prevalence of chimeras).

But apparently something called microchimerism is common in women who have been pregnant. Microchimerism is where during pregnancy some cells from the fetus make their way into the mother's body, and establish themselves there. It can also happen the other way around.

This article says:
After giving birth, about 50–75% of women carry fetal immune cell lines.

Maternal immune cells are also found in the offspring yielding in maternal→fetal microchimerism, though this phenomenon is about half as frequent as the former.

And perhaps slightly worryingly:
It is hypothesized that unprotected intercourse with ejaculation may be another source of microchimerism.


The fact that women seem more prone to microchimerism could perhaps explain the higher prevalence of autoimmune diseases in women.
 

Art Vandelay

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I suspect that the reason we are seeing a great rise in autoimmune diseases and cancers may be in part because of liberal values and the sexual revolution, as well as because of globalization and global travel.

I agree. I'd say that increased urbanisation (ie, the tendency for many people to live in very close proximity to one another in large cities) may also be a factor in allowing the easier spread of pathogens.

If pathogens can cause other illnesses such as depression, urbanisation might explain the rise in these sorts of illnesses too.
 

Gingergrrl

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@Sidny The title of your thread grabbed my attention and I apologize that I only got to skim through the posts until tomorrow when I have more time. I was curious though, are the authors saying that autoimmune diseases (like Hashimoto's, Sjogrens, Lupus, etc) do not exist or that they DO exist but are based on pathogens versus autoantibodies? I have more questions but need to read the article first :xeyes:
 

ScottTriGuy

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MTpockets

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Interesting...So what would the connection be then to celiac disease where there is an obvious outside trigger? Is there an outside trigger for all autoimmune diseases and they just haven't been identified yet? I know people with RA who say they can control symptoms with diet. So very fascinating...
 

Sidny

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@Sidny The title of your thread grabbed my attention and I apologize that I only got to skim through the posts until tomorrow when I have more time. I was curious though, are the authors saying that autoimmune diseases (like Hashimoto's, Sjogrens, Lupus, etc) do not exist or that they DO exist but are based on pathogens versus autoantibodies? I have more questions but need to read the article first :xeyes:


This is the actual title of the paper
Re-framing the Theory of Autoimmunity in the Era of the Microbiome: Persistent Pathogens, Autoantibodies, and Molecular Mimicry


I don’t believe the authors deny those diseases exist just that how they’re defined may not be accurate. That it’s actually the body reacting to persistent pathogens and their associated proteins through molecular mimicry or a similar mechanism rather than attacking itself.

One of the authors of that paper explains this aspect well here using the flu or cold virus as an example


One thing I think may be a factor is the fact that even when say, many of the HHVs humans are infected with are largely “dormant” they’re still expressing an abundant number of proteins our immune systems react to.

I thought this finding was interesting. “Autoantibodies” were halted after antibiotic treatment- In these mice, E. gallinarum initiated the production of “autoantibodies,” activated T cells, and inflammation. This “autoantibody” production stopped when E. gallinarum’s growth was suppressed with the antibiotic vancomycin. Indeed, anti-dsDNA, anti-RNA autoantibodies, anti-b2GPI immunoglobulin G, hepatic and serum ERV gp70, and anti-ERV gp70 immune complexes were all suppressed by vancomycin treatment.
 
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Sidny

Senior Member
Messages
176
Interesting...So what would the connection be then to celiac disease where there is an obvious outside trigger? Is there an outside trigger for all autoimmune diseases and they just haven't been identified yet? I know people with RA who say they can control symptoms with diet. So very fascinating...

For whatever reason the body is reacting to certain molecules in food ie gluten in celiac for example or other substances in the case of other food sensitivities. I think a compromised gut lining or mucosal barrier may feature in this. I read somewhere in the case of wheat that it could be during sensitization to it that other chemicals like glyphosate imbedded in it trigger the immune reaction and further exposures even in the absence of those chemicals still trigger a response due to the initial association the body has made.

Then there’s the question of oral tolerance, I used to be allergic to apples but as I continued to eat them my reaction disappeared.
 
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frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
I subscribe to Prof Paul Ewald's view that infectious pathogens are the major causal factor in autoimmune diseases, cancers and other chronic diseases (including serious mental health diseases).

I suspect that the reason we are seeing a great rise in autoimmune diseases and cancers may be in part because of liberal values and the sexual revolution, as well as because of globalization and global travel.

This is because both liberal values and globalization allow pathogens to spread between human beings, which means that 21st century man may be experiencing viral and pathogenic overload.

Ewald points out that more partners and amorous affairs you have, the more likely you are to catch a pathogen through kissing which may decades later trigger a chronic disease or cancer. Most of the pathogens that live long-term in our bodies are acquired via the respiratory route (eg, saliva), and French kissing is an efficient means to spread these pathogens.

Likewise, globalization allows pathogens which may have been localized to one part of the world to spread to new locations, so that also increases the pathogenic burden on each of us.



Toxic factors of course have also been shown to play a role in triggering disease; but that's nothing new, as most people are aware that various environmental toxins are linked to certain diseases.

But most of the general public are not aware of how the common pathogens in circulation may be the primary cause of a vast array of chronic diseases that make human life miserable.

I think what humanity needs to do is fund a massive multi-billion international research program to figure out how we can eliminate these pathogens from our bodies and from general circulation.
I agree that infections play a role, yet I believe toxic substances sustain our innate immune system and inflammatory response and mast cells, in a similar way that pathogens cause autoimmunity. So I think looking hard at environmental factors that can cause cell danger response and not just thinking of mcas and other inflammation as “overreaction” to benign triggers is important. Not that I totally disagree w the pathogen theory, but we need to think about how foreign substances are now deluging our cells and may cause haywire innate immune response even if the immune system isn’t “faulty”
 

Gingergrrl

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Full disclosure that I have not read any of the links or watched the videos yet in case my comments are idiotic :xeyes:... but I have everything bookmarked for when I have more time and feel more mentally alert. Autoimmunity fascinates me and seems to be so prevalent everywhere I turn.

I heard of a new hypothesis that all people with autoimmune disease are chimeras. They started out as a twin, but 'absorbed' the other twin very early in pregnancy. It is that 'other' that causes autoimmune disease.

Scott, I have never heard this theory before and it is absolutely fascinating. How would someone know if this pertained to them? (and I am assuming it is in the article)? I've have wondered why I have had a series of rare, life altering health problems but my sister has not had any since we (obviously!) have the same genetics.

I wonder if this hypothesis is a possible explanation (from the genetic perspective)? Versus, as far as environmental exposures, I have had a series of clear environmental triggers that my sister did not have (neurotoxic reaction to Levaquin, living and working in bldgs with SBS & toxic mold, and Mono/EBV).

Hmm @ScottTriGuy I am a chimera, although I have never heard that word before now. I also have extra body parts that have been found on CT in the past that are leftovers from my twin. So here is ONE that is interested in that theory!

Wow, even more fascinating! Maybe you are part strawberry? 🍓;) :jaw-drop:

I don’t believe the authors deny those diseases exist just that how they’re defined may not be accurate. That it’s actually the body reacting to persistent pathogens and their associated proteins through molecular mimicry or a similar mechanism rather than attacking itself.

That's what I assumed (that the authors do not deny that autoimmune diseases exist vs. they are just defining them in a new way). Both of my two main treating doctors believe 100% that the Mono virus/ EBV led to my autoimmunity. They feel that my body kept trying to attack the Mono (which was long gone but I tested IgM+ and EA+ for EBV for many years after) and it finally shifted into autoimmunity.

In addition, my Endo said that my Hashimoto's was the direct result of a prior pathogen attacking my thyroid gland and it shifting into autoimmunity. I have heard this is often from HHV-6 but assume it could also be from EBV or an unknown pathogen? Every doctor told me that Hashi's was the gateway to other autoimmune diseases and nothing could have been more true in my case.

For whatever reason the body is reacting to certain molecules in food ie gluten in celiac for example or other substances in the case of other food sensitivities.

I do not have Celiac but my Endo suggested to avoid gluten b/c it mimics the Hashi's autoantibody (or whatever part of the thyroid it attacks-- I cannot remember)?! I have been gluten free for 5+ years but on the rare occasion that I eat gluten, it is okay since I am not allergic to it. But I avoid it to slow down the autoimmune attack on my thyroid.

I agree that infections play a role, yet I believe toxic substances sustain our innate immune system and inflammatory response and mast cells, in a similar way that pathogens cause autoimmunity.

I totally agree and believe that the toxic mold exposure in my prior rental combined with working in a sick bldg at my prior job (for 10+ of the 12 years that I worked there) led to my MCAS. I do not believe I would ever have stopped having the allergic reactions (no matter what the treatment interventions were) if we had not moved away from that rental and given up our belongings.
 
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ScottTriGuy

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Scott, I have never heard this theory before and it is absolutely fascinating. How would someone know if this pertained to them? (and I am assuming it is in the article)? I've have wondered why I have had a series of rare, life altering health problems but my sister has not had any since we (obviously!) have the same genetics.

I wonder if this hypothesis is a possible explanation (from the genetic perspective)? Versus, as far as environmental exposures, I have had a series of clear environmental triggers that my sister did not have (neurotoxic reaction to Levaquin, living and working in bldgs with SBS & toxic mold, and Mono/EBV).

According to her hypothesis, if you have an autoimmune disease, you would be chimera. Not sure how environmental would fit, if at all.
 

Gingergrrl

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According to her hypothesis, if you have an autoimmune disease, you would be chimera. Not sure how environmental would fit, if at all.

I think what I wrote yesterday didn't make any sense :xeyes:! I wasn't trying to link environmental issues with the chimera/ autoimmunity hypothesis. What I was attempting to say was that in the case of me and my sister, we are genetically related but she has no health issues whatsoever (zero) and I have had a series of very severe health issues.

My thought on this was that *if I had the chimera issue from having an unknown twin in utero, but she did not, then this could explain the difference in genetics from an autoimmunity perspective (since we have no idea if either of us were a twin in utero, and we are five years apart).

Versus a non-genetic explanation would be that even though we have the same genetics, we do NOT have the same environmental exposures and I had multiple environmental immune triggers (neurotoxic reaction to antibiotic, toxic mold exposure in prior home, toxic exposures in prior work building, etc). I hope that makes more sense!
 
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