What is the best way to test for Boron ?

[Peyt]

Hi,
I am looking at my hair test and it shows Boron being on the high side and then on the Urine test it shows low.
Both of these are from Dr. Data.
So my question is what is the best way to test/measure Boron for deficiency ?
Thanks

 

[aaron_c]

Andrew Hall Cutler's take from Hair Test Interpretation: Finding Hidden Toxicities is that hair mineral analyses are accurate unless the patient has mercury poisoning, or unless the hair has been exposed to boron externally such as from soap or a pillow with a boron-based flame retardant. But he cautions that even in cases of external exposure to boron, it's possible that the hair mineral analysis accurately reflects boron body burden because most labs can wash the hair off enough to prevent contamination from shampoos, et.

He also notes that boron is normally excreted in the urine.

So all in all I'm not sure what to think about your test results. Mercury poisoning would, of course, explain them, and with a Dr's Data lab it is easy enough to use Andrew Hall Cutler's HMA counting rules to check for mercury poisoning. Another explanation could be that urinary boron fluctuates a decent amount throughout the day (I don't know this, I'm just wondering).

Post your HMA results or message me with them if you would like to use his counting rules--I've got the book and it's easy enough to do.

I've been taking boron lately too. My rough yardstick is that I take enough to prevent fungal-related skin issues, like dandruff. Perhaps time will tell how good this yardstick is.

 

[Peyt]

Andrew Hall Cutler's take from Hair Test Interpretation: Finding Hidden Toxicities is that hair mineral analyses are accurate unless the patient has mercury poisoning, or unless the hair has been exposed to boron externally such as from soap or a pillow with a boron-based flame retardant. But he cautions that even in cases of external exposure to boron, it's possible that the hair mineral analysis accurately reflects boron body burden because most labs can wash the hair off enough to prevent contamination from shampoos, et.

He also notes that boron is normally excreted in the urine.

So all in all I'm not sure what to think about your test results. Mercury poisoning would, of course, explain them, and with a Dr's Data lab it is easy enough to use Andrew Hall Cutler's HMA counting rules to check for mercury poisoning. Another explanation could be that urinary boron fluctuates a decent amount throughout the day (I don't know this, I'm just wondering).

Post your HMA results or message me with them if you would like to use his counting rules--I've got the book and it's easy enough to do.

I've been taking boron lately too. My rough yardstick is that I take enough to prevent fungal-related skin issues, like dandruff. Perhaps time will tell how good this yardstick is.

My HMA Mercury showed very low:
0.08 and it says normal range is: < 0.80

As far as Boron, it showed 8.3 and normal range is 0.40 - 3.0
Is there any thing else you need from the test to be able to use his counting rule on that?

 

[aaron_c]

Andrew Hall Cutler's counting rules are things like do you have 5 or more results that are either above the 95th or below the 5th percentiles? (I'm making this up...but the rules are like this.) I'd need to see the whole HMA to do it.

 

[Peyt]

Andrew Hall Cutler's counting rules are things like do you have 5 or more results that are either above the 95th or below the 5th percentiles? (I'm making this up...but the rules are like this.) I'd need to see the whole HMA to do it.

Okay, here it is , thanks so much.

 

[aaron_c]

Great!

Your HMA passes. Cutler doesn't think you have mercury poisoning.

Looking into Boron just a little bit more, it appears that urinary excretion occurs over the course of a few days and is pretty complete.

"In a study in which the dose of boron was measured with great accuracy, 99% of intravenous doses of boron administered as boric acid was recovered in the urine of 8 adult male subjects studied over a period of 5 days by Jansen et al., (1984a)."
​

In my mind this would tend to suggest either 1. that you had exposure to boron in the past (the period from which the hair in your HMA was taken) but not in the hours or days prior to your urine test or 2. that your hair absorbed boron from soap. There could, of course, be another reason I'm not thinking of.

 

[Peyt]

Thanks for looking into it.

 

[Learner1]

Aside from Doctors Data, is there a way to test for adequate boron?

I'm interested in factors to prevent/reverse osteopenia... my endocrinologist thinks I'm on too much thyroid, even though my labs and temperature don't say so, and cutting back on the high T4/T3 dose I'm on gives me brain fog and puts me to sleep. And my CFS docs think of course I'd need more thyroid given my illness while the endo quotes out of the standard textbook.

It occurred to me that, though I'm taking all the other possible supplements for bone health, I'm not taking boron, but I don't want to promote toxicity by taking too much.

Any ideas here? Thanks!

 

[aaron_c]

In my experience the big thing to worry about with boron is B2 deficiency. Boron binds to and depletes B2 and visa-versa. In practice I've found that this means it is hard to take a moderately high amount of B2 while also maintaining a reasonable level of boron.

You can also look out for the symptoms of boron toxicity: Poor appetite and weight loss, poor digestion, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, clumsiness, tremors, convulsions and an itchy red rash that is firm to the touch. If you think you might be boron toxic then taking more B2 should alleviate the symptoms.

Personally, I had symptoms from B2 deficiency long before other more serious boron toxicity symptoms. Once I learned to recognize it (and saw how easily it was remedied) I felt a lot more comfortable taking Boron.

 

[Learner1]

In my experience the big thing to worry about with boron is B2 deficiency. Boron binds to and depletes B2 and visa-versa. In practice I've found that this means it is hard to take a moderately high amount of B2 while also maintaining a reasonable level of boron.

You can also look out for the symptoms of boron toxicity: Poor appetite and weight loss, poor digestion, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, clumsiness, tremors, convulsions and an itchy red rash that is firm to the touch. If you think you might be boron toxic then taking more B2 should alleviate the symptoms.

Personally, I had symptoms from B2 deficiency long before other more serious boron toxicity symptoms. Once I learned to recognize it (and saw how easily it was remedied) I felt a lot more comfortable taking Boron.

Interesting insight, thanks. I'm taking 250mg of B2 as a part of a heavy duty methylation protocol customized to my labs.

If what you're saying is correct, then I might be deficient in boron. How would I know, and how do you know about the boron/B2 relationship?

Thanks!

 

[aaron_c]

Wow, that's a lot of B2. I take 48 mg and consider that a moderately high dose. Have you had your vitamin D tested? Among other things Boron prevents the conversion of 25 hydroxy vitamin D into an inactive form (which is soon excreted). So boron deficiency might cause vitamin D "wasting."

[Edit: I should also point out that riboflavin absorption may be capped at "25 mg per batch" -- this from Rich Van K, I don't know where he got that from.]

In regards to riboflavin and boric acid: Here is one study from the 70's that found that animals taking riboflavin were less susceptible to boric acid poisoning. Here is another study published a few years later that found increased levels of riboflavin in the urine of boric acid-poisoned humans, mostly in the first 24 hours after exposure. There are also a number of mentions of riboflavin being useful in treating boric acid poisoning, such as can be found on page 405 of Essentials of Nutrition and Diet Therapy by Schlenker and Roth (revised reprint ebook).

 

[Learner1]

I'm under the care of an expert doctor and my nutrients are doses based on lab testing. I take large amounts of B12, P5P, R5P, magnesium malate, molybdenum,10,000 IU vitamin D, Thorne Research 3-K complete and Garden of Life Plant Based Calcium with strontium and vanadium.

My vitamin D level runs between 55-80 - US measurement. I take replacement dose hydrocortisone, have suppressed TSH, and FT3 and FT4 are low normal. And I'm on several other hormones, including estriol and testosterone. And lift weights as I have the energy to do so.

But I'm actively losing bone according to several recent tests. Looking for an explanation and want to reverse it, and I suspect its some more esoteric bit of biochemistry due to my illness or maybe the boron, rather than too much thyroid which was the endo's pick.

Appreciate your ideas. I also saw your earlier thread with @Gondwanaland. Thanks.

 

[aaron_c]

If you are taking large amounts of molybdenum I should mention that I think that boron and molybdenum interact in an important albeit poorly understood way. The guy who runs heartfixer.com (James Roberts I think?) mentions that he thinks boron helps with sulfite oxidase (SUOX) such that if you have more boron you don't need as much molybdenum to make it work. For myself I've found that taking boron eventually causes insomnia that can be initially eliminated by stopping molybdenum and then later partly ameleorated by taking copper. Although I have no studies to back this up, I suspect that this is because boron may play a role in molybdenum transport or use, and I think that the 3-4 years when I took about 1.5 grams of molybdenum per day has created a kind of molybdenum toxicity that currently shows up as an unusually large amount of molybdenum being mobilized by boron.

I could be wrong. And so far I have looked for this in a hair mineral analysis and I saw nothing. But in any case if boron causes insomnia you might consider backing off of the molybdenum for a few days and seeing how you feel.