Unrelenting Cognitive Exhaustion

[RU72]

Curious if anyone can relate and if so, have you found any treatment(s) that help?

Though I was hyper-active as a child, I have always felt cognitively sluggish. The way that I have described it to doctors is, 'staying upright, focused, and productive is simply not possible.' And, my symptoms have only worsened since physically crashing in my mid-30s. I have also had life-long stomachaches, anxiety (principally physiological) and not surprisingly, extremely poor memory.

Unfortunately, my cognitive problems have made a potential recovery much more challenging.

 

[percyval577]

Unfortunately, my cognitive problems have made a potential recovery much more challenging.

This I can relate to for certain!
But the pro of a brain issue is also that one could/can feel how the influences are.

Just yesterday I renewed a trial, and today I tested the combination taurin and gaba.
It points to a connection between nucleus caudatus and thalamus, and it feels promising indeed.
A few months ago I had succes with tyrosine, gaba and (carefully, only in combis) tryptophan.
(pointing to basal ganglia and thalamus), earlier with tyrosine (and tryptophan).

I think the synaptical structure here has broken down.


The last two months I was trying with some metals like in chocolate and silver from a spoon in water. Overall slow but on the short run sometimes remarkable succes.
Some of them have been shown to be elevated or pronounced in these structures.
A drop of vinegar then for the notable nucleus accumbens (acid sensing ion channels there).

So I hope I am really right and it´s not because of my cognitive issues. :thumbdown:

(Prerquisute could be an influence on microglia, which I can achieve as below.)​

 

[Hip]

Though I was hyper-active as a child, I have always felt cognitively sluggish.

Might you have ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder)? I had some ADHD, but it was made much worse by the viral brain infection which also trigged my ME/CFS.

 

[Crux]

I'm taking Phosphatidylcholine ,( PC ),right now, and it is really calming my anxiety. Attention and sleep are better too.

There's a large percentage of people for whom it works, and just as many that it doesn't. Some of the people on nootropic forums and such are healthy, but are taking huge doses causing side effects. Some have experienced depression from it.

I've tried other types of choline like citicoline, but it is stimulating. The neurotransmitter acetylcholine is made from choline. It's good for memory and attention, but too much will antagonize dopamine production. PC can increase dopamine receptors though.

Pathogenic microbes will use choline to produce toxic products, TMAO, so if you have sibo or an overgrowth of gut bugs, PC can feed them.

There you go, tmi, lol.

 

[RU72]

I definitely have ADD. As a child, it was ADHD, but now ADD inattentive, which is a killer. I always feel like I'm stoned; very lethargic. And, that's on Adderall! Off it, I'm a complete vegetable. I have tried nootropics in the past, but don't recall any eureka moments. My puzzle, like many I'm sure, is definitely complex.

 

[Crux]

To be clear, choline is essential, not just a nootropic.

 

[RU72]

I just purchased Lecithin. Do you know what type of test(s) are available for Choline deficiencies in the brain?

 

[Crux]

Lecithin and a supplement of phosphatidylcholine (PC), are good sources of PC, but they only have 10-13 % choline itself. Foods like eggs and salmon are good sources of choline.

Your doctor can order a blood test for choline, but I don't think there's a test for brain choline.

Here's a blood test you can order yourself :

https://www.spectracell.com/patients/patient-micronutrient-testing/

I haven't tested myself, just going by symptoms.

With choline deficiency, there can be fatty liver, elevated liver enzymes, impairment of fat metabolism, and many more.

https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/other-nutrients/choline

 

[pattismith]

I just purchased Lecithin. Do you know what type of test(s) are available for Choline deficiencies in the brain?

What kind of lecithin did you purchase?

 

[Peyt]

Pathogenic microbes will use choline to produce toxic products, TMAO, so if you have sibo or an overgrowth of gut bugs, PC can feed them.
.

@Crux
This has been a challenge for me since I do have SIBO and i can literally feel slower motility and GI issues when I take Choline.
I also have a fatty liver (confirmed by ultrasound) which could be a sign of Choline deficiency.
Is there any specific tests (blood, urine, ...) that can prove Choline deficiency? If yes, I would love to ask my doctor for them because if Choline deficiency if proven then I can ask for Choline IV and bypass the gut bacteria.

 

[Crux]

@Peyt

Here's a blood test you can order yourself :

https://www.spectracell.com/patients/patient-micronutrient-testing/

This is what I found, but it seems there should be more.... I don't have any experience with this test.
I did have trouble years ago with trying egg lecithin - I developed a musty odor. I've had a long battle with suspected sibo.

It seems in theory, an iv would be better. @Learner1 has had them, but I'm not sure if she battles sibo. It'd be good to start a thread about this, because....

 

[Peyt]

@Crux
Interesting you say this.
I have been reading up on a condition called trimethylaminuria since last night.
Apparently this condition is associated with gut bacteria producing something called TMAOs when the person ingests Choline. TMAO's can have a certain
fishy smell either in the sweat, or urine/breath.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK1103/

There is also a relationship with a gene called FMO3
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/trimethylaminuria

This is another reason why I would look into Choline I.V. Beacause if my gut bacteria is making TMAOs and that is backing up in the liver and causing all kinds of problems, yet my body needs Choline, it would make sense to use the IV.

I would be totally open to starting a thread on this subject. Most of the information out there is for what is called Primary trimethylaminuria which I think is for people whose FMO3 gene is completely shut down... but I wonder if there are others who are affected who have SIBO or other gut dysbosis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK1103/[/QUOTE]

 

[Crux]

@Peyt

Yeah, I smelled 'garbage', thought it was the house. I have one copy of the FMO3 gene.
After some rounds of abx, I don't make that odor.

There are many people here who have trouble with acetylcholine and choline, whether it's receptors, microbes, autoimmunity or genetics.

I would be interested in peoples' input, with more threads.

 

[Learner1]

I have gotten IVs of phosphatidyl choline, taken along with NT Factor biweekly over the past 8 months. The reason I did it was to try to repair mitochondrial membranes damaged by peroxynitrites. I had an HDRI nitrotyrosine test which is a marker for peroxynitrites. See the attached which explains the peroxynitrites.

I recently had a Spectracell run within a few days of a Genova Diagnostics NutrEval. It tests a couple things that the NutrEval does not. The method is that they put your cells in a grid of solutions that are each missing a nutrient, then they add the misding nutrient and see how your cells respond. This sounds fine, however, there were a couple of striking differences between the results of the two tests.

The NutrEval was screaming that I needed riboflavin, used in mitochondria complex II, while the Spectracell said I was high normal in B2. When I say screaming, I mean that several metabolites on the NutrEval indicates a riboflavin deficiency. My doctor and I discussed it and decided that my body is using all of the high dose or riboflavin I'm giving it and the Spectracell noted my cells had a lot at the moment of the test while the NutrEval was more reflective of the pathways showing where it was going and that I was indeed deficient in riboflavin which is important to know if I want my mitochondria to work properly.

There are definitely people here with acetylcholine issues of the types you mentioned. It's important to figure out what sort of problem and solve it appropriately. Pyridostigmine (Mestinon) has been a great help for my POTS. My mom has hallucinated wildly on anticholinergenic drugs for Parkinson's.

 

[Peyt]

@Crux
I have one copy of that gene as well.

 

[Peyt]

@Learner1

B2 is one of the few supplements that supposedly cleans up the residual FOM3 activity:
https://www.genome.gov/11508983/#al-6

It's funny because the last 2 weeks I have been posting about how I have been getting better using Thiamine and B2. Thiamine has reduced my agitations greatly and has helped in other ways, and B2 is helping me sleep better and slowing down my fast heart rate. All along I was thinking there was a Thiamine deficiency and/or perhaps the glucose channel is backed up. It turns out that Thiamine actually helps make Choline in the body and B2 helps with reducing TMAOs. (so perhaps it's all about Choline not glucose for me, it just happens that the 2 supplements do help with both!)

I just did a NutrEval and OAT test last week. My doctor said it takes 3-4 weeks to get the results back. I wonder if it would show B2 deficiency on my test as well.

 

[Learner1]

Glad B1 and B2 have helped. They have multiple functions.

The test results do take awhile to come back. They are both good tests and shoukd have dependable results. Make sure you get the full 25 page Physicians Copy of the NutrEval results - your doctor may not be signed up to get them. The helpful text explanations have been quite useful.

 

[Peyt]

Update,
Just got my results back on TMAO,
Standard range should be up to 6.2 and I am 7.8, so definitely on the high side.
On the other hand, I actually started experimenting with CDP-Choline and Uridine after taking that test and I feel so much better mentally but my gut motility has slowed down alot.... this is so frustrating... I will see my doctor next week.. I think the next step would be to do a stool test to see which bugs are doing this and possible antibiotics... I really would like to continue the CDP-choline as it has brought me out of depression and I am actually socializing and feeling so much better....

 

[gbells]

Curious if anyone can relate and if so, have you found any treatment(s) that help?

Though I was hyper-active as a child, I have always felt cognitively sluggish. The way that I have described it to doctors is, 'staying upright, focused, and productive is simply not possible.' And, my symptoms have only worsened since physically crashing in my mid-30s. I have also had life-long stomachaches, anxiety (principally physiological) and not surprisingly, extremely poor memory.

Unfortunately, my cognitive problems have made a potential recovery much more challenging.

A good first supplement if you have Epstein Barr virus symptoms (sore throat, swollen lymph nodes, cold skin, painful feet) would be a curcumin supplement. It is an antidote for upregulated Nf-kB pathways of inflammation that EBV and some other bacteria use to infect cells. It won't stop infections but will give you symptom relief from inflammatory pain which can help lower your stress and improve thinking.

https://www.amazon.com/Ultra-CURCUMIN-Release-Bioperine-Absorption/dp/B005HZYYHS
This is a twice a day, time release pill.

 

[RU72]

What kind of lecithin did you purchase?

I purchased Now Sunnflower lecithin 1200mg; 200 softgels.