The missing link

[learning]

Hi.
- I have used this forum over the years with much success at improving my symptoms of fatigue.
- This thread: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/lactic-acidosis-from-probiotics.17564/ really opened my eyes and helped me realize that having a bacterial overgrowth of lactic acid producing bacteria is a huge contributor to my symptoms.
- Every time I would eat starch/sugar the silly bacteria would convert it into lactic acid. Lactic acid is also produced in muscles that are in use. This build up of lactic acid is the cause of muscle soreness and fatigue. It can also lead to lactic/metabolic acidosis. Taking baking soda to neutralize the acid has helped. I am currently looking for a more permanent solution. I do not want my glucose to be converted into lactic acid. I want it to be used as energy and converted into ATP. Will taking lactate-utilizing bacteria be the solution I am looking for? Does anyone have any experience with lactate-utilizing bacteria probiotics?

 

[learning]

https://www.researchgate.net/public...gastrointestinal_tract_of_the_dromedary_camel

this article addresses the importance of having a balance of lactic acid producing and lactic utilizing bacteria in camels. doesn't anyone have a comment? Saying anything would be better than nothing at this point...

 

[Lisa108]

Well, I don't qualify as a camel. So it's hard to draw any conclusion if these findings could also be applied to my species (which is robot).

So glad they did find something to help camels suffering from foregut acidosis, though.

(Yes, it is 5:34 a.m. here and I'm still not sleeping, but you said anything would be better than nothing...)

 

[learning]

Thank you Lisa, for the response. it is true that we are not camels but it has long been known that cows also get symptoms of fatigue due to lactic acid after being switched to grain (high starch) diets. there are veterinary probiotic supplements for cows to increase their lactic utilizing bacteria. why has this not been studied in humans?

 

[Lisa108]

Hi @learning, I wasn't sure if your thread was sincere or tongue-in-cheek (as the study is about camels). I hope you didn't find my response rude...

I'm really sceptical when findings from animal models are applied to our physiology. They may give an idea, but our bodies very often work so much differently.

On the other hand, the study you cited may well be grounded on findings from human medical studies on d-lactic acidosis and SIBO.

You might also like to check this thread.

Best wishes!

 

[learning]

Hi Lisa. Thanks for pointing me over to the other thread. The problem that I am having is exactly the same as the OP has. I will continue the discussion over there.

 

[Wishful]

- Every time I would eat starch/sugar the silly bacteria would convert it into lactic acid.

Starch/sugar has other effects too. For me, they increase tryptophan transport into my brain, about 20 minutes after consuming them, causing increased brainfog and general 'feeling worse'. I verified that by taking BCAA's with the meal, which blocks (or delays and spreads out) tryptophan transport, which prevented the effect.

If you discover some counterevidence to your theory that lactic acid production from sugar/starch is responsible for your symptoms, consider other possibilities. I don't seem to have any problems with lactic acid.

 

[Wishful]

I'm really sceptical when findings from animal models are applied to our physiology. They may give an idea, but our bodies very often work so much differently.

True. I recently read ( https://newatlas.com/rosehip-neuron/56093/ ) about a recent discovery of a type of neuron that don't exist in usual lab animals, and it mentioned that there are a few other brain cells that are only found in humans and a few animals with large brains (cetaceans, primates). Animal models wouldn't help with studying issues involving those cells, and would likely result in erroneous theories. What if these cells were a critical part of ME/CFS?

We do have many chemical pathways that work the same in other animals, and some that are more or less unchanged over hundreds of millions of years of evolution. Those successful results may blind some researchers to the possibility of differences between animal models and humans.

 

[learning]

For me, they increase tryptophan transport into my brain

That is very interesting. I have read about bacteria that produce serotonin and dopamine. Maybe there is a type of bacteria that produces tryptophan as well? I will look into it.

 

[learning]

Maybe there is a type of bacteria that produces tryptophan as well? I will look into it.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009167491631020X

Here is a start. At least we know that it is possible for bacteria to "form" tryptophan. Seems like these little bacteria are more powerful than I thought.

 

[Wishful]

Interesting, but I don't think bacteria-produced TRP is a factor for me, since it still needs to cross the BBB, so BCAA's would block their effect. For me the problem seems to be in the conversion of TRP to kynurenines in the brain, which involves microglia and their mitochondria. That's where I think at least part of the core dysfunction of ME/CFS resides.

 

[learning]

For me the problem seems to be in the conversion of TRP to kynurenines in the brain, which involves microglia and their mitochondria.

How were you able to come to this conclusion?

 

[Seven7]

. I want it to be used as energy and converted into ATP

Don’t we all!!! I have discovered that is one of the issues of Cfs ( at least a soubgroup). I switch to high fat ( without going into ketosis) the balance is very fine line where my body is running of off fat but not into full ketosis. I can tell becuse when I move into ketosis the keto rash on my face let’s me know. And where is too far away of ketosis becuse 1) I feel week and low on energy ( I know I switch to glucose burning) and 2) no bumps whatsoever ( keto rash) on the face at all.
So my sweet spot is trace of ketosis when you do the urine test.
I did the whole gut repair, gut suplements, Gaps diet... but came to conclusion that while I have Cfs I will not run efficiently on glucose. So will not try to anymore. By the way even though I have no sugar whatsoever the Latic acid pain also comes from going anaerobic ( which we in Cfs constantly). Will not make this post too long. But that contirubuted also.

 

[learning]

By the way even though I have no sugar whatsoever the Latic acid pain also comes from going anaerobic

I'm not sure what you mean by "going anaerobic", but as far as I know there are 3 ways that the body can "produce" lactic acid:
1. Every time we move our muscles lactic acid is produces
2. Some cancers produce lactic acid
3. lactic acid producing bacteria in our gut flora

The lactic acid producing bacteria is the same thing that is sold in many places as "probiotics". It should not propose a problem for most "healthy" people. Only when there is a bacterial overgrowth does it become a problem. That lactic acid forming bacterial overgrowth is very bad for 2 reasons: 1. It converts the carbs that we eat into lactic acid so that our bodies cannot use them for fuel. and 2. when there is to much lactic acid in our bodies a signal is send to the brain to stop moving, it is a safety mechanism to prevent us from getting more acidic and producing more lactic acid. Our brain stops us and makes us feel tired (fatigued). our brains are not the problem. the problem is lactic acid. For years bodybuilders and performance athletes have been trying to figure out how to make our bodies more efficient at dealing with lactic acid. The solution might be very simple. Taking bacteria supplement that use up the lactic acid in our bodies and convert it to something else. Lactic acid utilizing bacteria. Through research I am trying to create a list of bacteria that are known to use lactic acid. Like the ones used on livestock to prevent lactic acidosis. I will post my findings here. I am also willing to be our test subject, and to post all of my results/experiments.

If anyone knows of any lactic acid utilizing bacteria, please share.

 

[Wishful]

@learning , supplemental TRP made my symptoms very much worse, but 5-HTP didn't, so the problem must involve the kynurenine pathway through indole oxidase, which in the brain is produced in microglial cells. Muscle damage, such as from exertion, increases IFN-g about 24 hrs later, which in turn boosts IDO production, which to me explains my 24-hr delayed PEM. Muscle strain produces the same increase in symptoms as viral infections for me, so I take that as confirming evidence that IFN-g is involved. The blocking of the increase from TRP from BCAA's points to it being a cerebral problem, plus kynurenines don't pass the BBB easily. IDO requires superoxide to catalyze TRP to KYN, which is formed in mitochondria. IDO sticks around as a catalyst until destroyed by peroxynitrite, which is formed from superoxide and NO. Peroxynitrite scavengers make my symptoms much worse, so my hypothesis is that my symptoms severity is at least in a large part due to excess kynurenines (particularly quinolinic acid), and my ME involves dysfunction regarding superoxide/peroxynitrite ratios and IDO remaining active too long. I assume there are feedback loops involving other parts of the immune system too. Various other substances, such as VitC worsened my symptoms in ways consistent with this hypothesis (involving the last two sections of the electron transport chain).

It's only a hypothesis, but I've found evidence supporting it, and none contradicting it...so far. I don't have the physical limitations that most ME victims have, which makes me believe that those limitations are secondary effects, possibly due to DNA variations between cerebral mitochondria and mitochondria elsewhere in the body. Excess kynurenines can explain most of the mental symptoms of ME, and even the elevated TSH many of us have (via picolinic acid).

Do you see any flaws in my hypothesis?

 

[Seven7]

. Taking bacteria supplement that use up the lactic acid in our bodies and convert it to something else. L

Already tried that, there is a lady that has a list might save you some time. Her list definately helped and is what I still use to the day. Will post link if I find it, I believe it was Cort who wrote about her then I found her website.
Is known on Cfs patients to have very low anaerobic tresh hold. So when you do very minimum movement is as if a. Normal person just run a a marathon or lifted heave weights. There are studies studying this ( goggle 2 day cpet for details) so even if you fix gut in Cfs, you will have the Latic acid from going anaerobic.
I had my test and my anaerobic treshhomd was 115 bits per minute. So just for me brushing my theet I would reach anaerobic metabolism which meant if I stayed too long over that number, my pain was intolerable. Independent of what you eat.

 

[JES]

It's only a hypothesis, but I've found evidence supporting it, and none contradicting it...so far. I don't have the physical limitations that most ME victims have, which makes me believe that those limitations are secondary effects, possibly due to DNA variations between cerebral mitochondria and mitochondria elsewhere in the body. Excess kynurenines can explain most of the mental symptoms of ME, and even the elevated TSH many of us have (via picolinic acid).

Do you see any flaws in my hypothesis?

I also experience a bad reaction to peroxynitrite scavengers and vitamin C. I don't have the expertise to comment on your hypothesis other than that antidepressants have been found to modulate the kynurenine pathway (source) and it seems that kynurenine pathway issues are also implicated in depression. But it seems antidepressants are even less useful for ME/CFS than depression.

 

[learning]

Do you see any flaws in my hypothesis?

I don't see any flaws in your hypothesis. I was just wondering if hypothetically you have a bacteria that produces TRP, then taking supplemental TRP would make your symptoms worse. If I remember correctly 5-htp is a precursor of TRP but taking it does not guarantee that your body is going to convert any of it into TRP.

 

[learning]

Already tried that, there is a lady that has a list might save you some time. Her list definately helped and is what I still use to the day. Will post link if I find it, I believe it was Cort who wrote about her then I found her website.
Is known on Cfs patients to have very low anaerobic tresh hold. So when you do very minimum movement is as if a. Normal person just run a a marathon or lifted heave weights. There are studies studying this ( goggle 2 day cpet for details) so even if you fix gut in Cfs, you will have the Latic acid from going anaerobic.
I had my test and my anaerobic treshhomd was 115 bits per minute. So just for me brushing my theet I would reach anaerobic metabolism which meant if I stayed too long over that number, my pain was intolerable. Independent of what you eat.

It Is true that lactic acid that is produced in the muscles can be challenging. When ever I do anything strenuous the onset of muscle soreness is very quick and can last for up to a week. Making it difficult to get out of bed at times. But from the sounds of it you are saying that my theory is correct. The lactic acid utilizing bacteria has helped you. I am excited that there is a list of lactic acid utilizing bacteria and I hope that you can find it...

 

[Seven7]

It Is true that lactic acid that is produced in the muscles can be challenging. When ever I do anything strenuous the onset of muscle soreness is very quick and can last for up to a week. Making it difficult to get out of bed at times. But from the sounds of it you are saying that my theory is correct. The lactic acid utilizing bacteria has helped you. I am excited that there is a list of lactic acid utilizing bacteria and I hope that you can find it...

https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2015/10/12/lactic-acidosis-causing-cfs-fm-symptoms/
I still need to find the blog
But here is some I still use= prescript assist, Dr Mercola complete probiotic, Solary super mitlidophilus ( review this one not sure if it was part of the list but found the bottle, might be an old one)