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The cause of ME/CFS in a subgroup?

bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,738
Location
South East England, UK
Sorry for this long post -
CORRECTION - IT IS DR KENNETH BROWN MD NOT DR BEN BROWN MD - APOLOGIES FOR THE ERROR

SIBO - LATEST RESERCH FROM DR BEN BROWN MD, GASTROENTEROLOGIST and RESEARCHER – DECEMBER 2019

(I made these notes whilst listening to a webinar produced by SIBO SOS and Shivan Sarna. It might not be 100% accurate so if you think I have got something wrong please let me know).

CBS enzyme is one that is involved in breaking down cysteine but if it becomes overwhelmed with more cysteine than it can handle then this can cause raised hydrogen sulfide which can then feed bacteria and cause SIBO.

"I am homozygous for CBS A13637G and the common one C699T. but I don't know if this would affect the enzyme at all. I am also Heterozygous for 2 others, but Ben Lynch thinks looking at the literature that C699 T doesn’t affect anything.)

Another gas that causes issues in SIBO is methane, the effect of it is that it causes the normal waves involved in the breaking down of food in the digestive tract to completely stop. I think he said that nerves can be damaged in the gut after a bout of severe food poisoning like Campylobacter or E Coli or Salmonella. It’s a molecular effect and peristalsis stops. You will then hurt and bloat.

A recent 2019 study shows that the Hydrogen sulfide bacteria causes diarrhoea – its derived from the breakdown of cysteine, bacterial or endogenously produced. He asked does it matter which way hydrogen sulfide is produced so he went on to describe it as the Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

The Good – when you eat food containing cysteine it is taken into the cell and produces hydrogen sulfide to produce energy for the cell. On the outside of the cell when exposed to normal levels of cysteine there will be low levels of hydrogen sulfide produced which can then be used to make mucous which is protective to the lining of the small intestines.

The Bad – but in SIBO when you have too much hydrogen sulphide around because its overwhelming the cell it does two things – one, your body can use up the CBS’ enzyme ability to convert it with the consequence hydrogen sulphide builds up and the cell gets worn out and cannot convert all of it and this will use up the oxygen in the cell so that the mitochondria are negatively affects and ATP won’t be produced as it should be. Two - this causes inflammation and can even increase the risk of cancer.

The Ugly – New studies show that when you block the CBS enzyme because of too much hydrogen sulphide, the cells will use glucose instead causing them to rapidly divide which can cause cancer in colonic tissue. A polyp will grow into cancer very rapidly.

SIBO is not just about the gut but about the health of the whole person. It can cause the following conditions-

  • Depression
  • Sleep disturbances
  • Migraines
  • Chronic Pain
  • Restless Legs Syndrome
  • FATIGUE
    • ATRANTIL – He is involved in the company that manufacturers this product. The main herb that is used is very effective. All the herbs in this product are polyphenols and this would be one of the reasons why the Mediterranean diet is recommended because it is high in polyphenols. It turns out that they are poorly absorbed and will get to the colonic bacteria in the gut which will soak up gases. This has been well researched, the study quoted showed-

    • Inhibition of hydrogen sulphide, methane and total gas production and sulfate-reducing bacteria in vitro swine manure by tannins with focus on Quebracho tannins. NB Quebracho is the main ingredient in Antrantil.
    • The study quoted the following figures –

    • Quebracho added to swine manure which is a reservoir for hydrogen sulfide and methane. There was an 80% decrease in Hydrogen Sulfide, 90% decrease in sulfate producing bacteria and finally an 85% decrease in methane production.

    • Another article from the Amino Acid Journal 2018 states “Polyphenol extracts prevent the inhibitory effect of oxygen on colonocytes”. This article also states that the polyphenols bound up hydrogen sulfide and brought back up the depleted oxygen.

    • LEAKY GUT

    • 95% of doctors know nothing about it and it is very complicated. Dr Brown explained that we have 3 main gates which can cause trouble –

    • SIBO/INFECTIONS
    • ZONULIN
    • DIET

    • All three can lead to a leaky gut with the possibility of these resulting diseases –

      Thyroid issues – Type 1 diabetes – Liver disease – Crohns disease – Ulcerative Colitis – Celiac Disease – Inflammation, such as TNFa raised – Autoimmune diseases

      All of these could be related to the gut being disordered

      Mucus production protects the tight junctions of the gut but as mentioned previously hydrogen sulfide will compromise the immune system because of its over-abundance. Mast cells will get irritated and as they are inflammatory, they will dump large amounts of histamine for example. The enteric nerve system is affected which is in close proximity of the nervous system which will also be affected.

      The latest research shows that Zonulin can cause both a leaky gut and a leaky brain and you can end up with high inflammatory markers from the gut (The Gut Brain Axis).

      One study showed that in vitro CBD oil calmed intestinal permeability. This was CBD without THC btw. The study was done in mice originally, I think he said but they have also repeated it in humans by giving healthy controls lactulose and mannose thereby creating a leaky gut. CBD oil was taken, and it was found that it calmed everything down and stopped this happening.

      DIET – With regard to this Dr Brown felt that a Paleo or Mediterranean diet was most suitable for those of us with SIBO or gut issues, but he stressed that he felt it was important to be gluten-free. A Fodmap diet was often used but he felt that it should never be used long term because it creates nutrient deficiencies.

      Another paper was mentioned – From Critical Reviews in Food Science and Nutrition, April 2016.

      Effect of Cocoa and its flavonoids on Biomarkers of Inflammation – Studies of Cell Culture, Animals and Humans. Regulation of Tight Junctions by Natural Polyphenols.

      I am sure he said that this study was related to IBD.

      If we wanted to find out more about the issue of gluten and a leaky gut, then he recommended Dr Alessio Fasano’s work. Dr Brown believes these gut issues can be the cause of so many illnesses of our time and affect humans from the cradle to the grave

      I was particularly blown away when I heard him say that with excess cysteine around the cell the result is that oxygen will be used up so that the mitochondria are affected with the result of low ATP. That is the first time I have heard this and maybe it explains why I had such low oxygen in my cells when tested at the Breakspear Private Hospital. Dr Munro told me on that day I had less then 50% of the normal amount in my cells probably because I had gone swimming that morning only a few hours before the test and I did feel dreadful. Obviously, I hadn’t recovered at all. This was why it was recommended that I use an oxygen concentrator and I have ever since that meeting back in 2013 I believe. It’s one of the best things I have ever done.

      I also fit the picture of having a bad gastro illness as I had Campylobacter poisoning in 1998 that was quite severe. At that time I did not have ME but I did have severe migraines and attacks of vertigo following a bad flu in 1989, However, I still had good energy and was swimming 32 lengths of my local pool 3 times a week plus I was teaching part time and walked my 2 dogs daily.

      Less than 2 years after the poisoning I had to give up teaching because I was so unwell and my ability to walk any distance or swim was gone and has never returned. My gut issues have got worse and worse, but I am currently on day one of a trial of Antrantil and also Iberogast because when we have this problem a prokinetic is needed to help with the motility that just doesn’t happen when you have SIBO.
Pam
 
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ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
Great informative post Pam!:thumbsup::thumbsup:


Dr Brown believes these gut issues can be the cause of so many illnesses of our time and affect humans from the cradle to the grave

I couldn't agree more!!

  • ATRANTIL – He is involved in the company that manufacturers this product. The main herb that is used is very effective. All the herbs in this product are polyphenols and this would be one of the reasons why the Mediterranean diet is recommended because it is high in polyphenols. It turns out that they are poorly absorbed and will get to the colonic bacteria in the gut which will soak up gases. This has been well researched, the study quoted showed-
    [*]

    [*]Inhibition of hydrogen sulphide, methane and total gas production and sulfate-reducing bacteria in vitro swine manure by tannins with focus on Quebracho tannins. NB Quebracho is the main ingredient in Antrantil.
I had a CDSA done several years ago now. It found pathogenic levels of a very antibiotic resistant bacteria called Psuedomonas Aeruginosa.

The info that came with the test results gave me some options for treating this with either pharmaceutical antibiotics or herbal ones. One of the 2 herbal ones was plant tannins. It was found that these plant tannins were very effective at killing this bacteria.


but in SIBO when you have too much hydrogen sulphide around because its overwhelming the cell it does two things – one, your body can use up the CBS’ enzyme ability to convert it with the consequence hydrogen sulphide builds up and the cell gets worn out and cannot convert all of it and this will use up the oxygen in the cell so that the mitochondria are negatively affects and ATP won’t be produced as it should be.

ME/CFS researcher Neil McGregor, earlier this year, did a talk on his research that's now on YouTube. He talked about how big a role gut barrier dysfunction plays in ME/CFS, quote- "This barrier dysfunction appears to be a major precipitater of what else is going on" in ME/CFS. Meaning the gut barrier dysfunction comes first.

He says that, quote- "Gut barrier dysfunction appears to be a major component in the maintenance of this sort of issue" meaning (ME/CFS).

He also says that what the species of the bacteria in the gut were, was less important than what metabolites the bacteria made. Which seems to tie into hydrogen sulfide, methane, etc. that was mentioned in the webinar you saw.
 
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Messages
32
This is such a great thread! Any updates to what you learned since then? I would love to know if you have found anything else that would reduce gut hydrogen sulfide. I ordered Antrantil to test it. I get red swollen finger pip joints when I eat sulfur and believe that hydrogen sulfide is my issues but I could be wrong. I'm in the very years long process of finding out whats wrong with me. What helps me is Quercetin, pomegranate and a combination of ornithine, cutrilline and lysine.
 

bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,738
Location
South East England, UK
I ended up with too low sodium and too high potassium on my last blood test and this is very bad for my adrenal condition so I stopped the Antrantil and wondered if it contributed to the high potassium. I think I took it for about 3 weeks and didn't notice any great difference in my gut function to be honest.

At the moment I am in a flare of POTS and this obviously negatively affects the gut dysregulation especially when I go to bed when it can be at its worse so it isn't a good time for me to restart Antrantil but later in the year hopefully when things settle down again I will retry but will only take it twice daily and not three times daily as I did during December until the blood test results.

I have had to take Fludrocortisone in order to counter the high potassium.

Pam
 
Messages
32
I ended up with too low sodium and too high potassium on my last blood test and this is very bad for my adrenal condition so I stopped the Antrantil and wondered if it contributed to the high potassium. I think I took it for about 3 weeks and didn't notice any great difference in my gut function to be honest.

At the moment I am in a flare of POTS and this obviously negatively affects the gut dysregulation especially when I go to bed when it can be at its worse so it isn't a good time for me to restart Antrantil but later in the year hopefully when things settle down again I will retry but will only take it twice daily and not three times daily as I did during December until the blood test results.

I have had to take Fludrocortisone in order to counter the high potassium.

Pam
Thanks for posting. Sorry that you've been going through those issues and I can see how it would be hard to test and verify while you have other conditions going on. I think I've heard about the low sodium and it's a little worrisome. I'll be fine for a short two-three week trial. I tend to get ahead of myself because I've been suffering from this illness for so many years. For now I'll try Antrantil and see if it helps. If it doesn't work than I can try other things that supposebly help reduce or bind to hydrogen sulfide like zinc acetate, hydroxocobalamin and bismuth(Pepto bismo?). Just because I think my problem is hydrogen sulfide doesn't mean it is. Making errors can result in learning so lets hope I learn something new.