SIBO

[purplelady]

Has anyone been diagnosed with SIBO?

 

[Remi]

No, doctors in NL don't dx that afaik. Wondering if I have SIFO (as well), as my b vitamins are very low without suppletion. So is ferritin and vit D, which could point to SIBO. As soon as I have money, I will get vit A and E tested.

From the symptoms, I have some kind of fermented gut.

 

[Carl]

I would say that a significant percentage of the population has SIBO without knowing it. That is on the basis of the research that I have read about helicobacter testing and various people that I know who have mentioned symptoms which could be interpreted as translating to mean SIBO.

Hypochlorhydria usually gives rise to SIBO.

 

[xploit316]

I would say that a significant percentage of the population has SIBO without knowing it. That is on the basis of the research that I have read about helicobacter testing and various people that I know who have mentioned symptoms which could be interpreted as translating to mean SIBO.

Hypochlorhydria usually gives rise to SIBO.

How does one treat SIBO Carl? I have tried many supplements, diets but the symptoms keep coming back.

 

[Carl]

Solve hypochlorhydria is the only real solution IMO.

The reason for hypochlorhydria can have multiple causes. One in particular which can affect people with CFS is ATP energy generation. However I think that urease bacteria are a bigger problem. They use Urea in saliva to neutralize stomach acid by producing ammonia and carbon dioxide in reaction to acid.

These bacteria can stop stomach acid levels rising and adversely affect digestion and destruction of bacteria in the stomach which allows them to settle in the small intestine. Healthy stomach acid levels should prevent this.

Cortisol stimulates saliva and cortisol tends to be high in CFS unless the nervous system in the adrenal glands is degraded giving reduced adrenal function. Lowering cortisol levels is helpful and it also reduces tissue breakdown. Siberian Ginseng can work well, it sensitizes the body to cortisol which means that the body only needs to produce smaller amounts. It also deactivates the alarm reaction. I prefer Tu Si Zi (dodder seed) because it also has other benefits as well as lowering/normalizing cortisol.

Histamine also stimulates saliva and histamine levels tend to be high in CFS. Histamine also causes vasodilation and could contribute to LBP. Reducing this is also helpful.

A simple test for urease is to swallow some acid to see if you burp within 60 seconds but often quicker. Suck as much saliva into your mouth before swallowing it to promote the reaction and then quickly swallow Lemon juice or vinegar in a glass of water(150ml). Wash your mouth with sodium bicarb immediately afterwards to protect your teeth and then with water. But make sure that you do not swallow any or it will falsify the test!!

Helicobacter pylori is not the only urease positive bacteria, there are many more which can cause urea breath test false positives. If you suspect that you might have a urease infection there are some herbs which can inhibit the urease enzyme, including Milk thistle, Chamomile and Ginkgo but after what I have read about Ginkgo I would not recommend using it. There are other herbs which can also inhibit urease.
[EDIT] Updated water volume.

 

[xploit316]

Solve hypochlorhydria is the only real solution IMO.

The reason for hypochlorhydria can have multiple causes. One in particular which can affect people with CFS is ATP energy generation. However I think that urease bacteria are a bigger problem. They use Urea in saliva to neutralize stomach acid by producing ammonia and carbon dioxide in reaction to acid.

These bacteria can stop stomach acid levels rising and adversely affect digestion and destruction of bacteria in the stomach which allows them to settle in the small intestine. Healthy stomach acid levels should prevent this.

Cortisol stimulates saliva and cortisol tends to be high in CFS unless the nervous system in the adrenal glands is degraded giving reduced adrenal function. Lowering cortisol levels is helpful and it also reduces tissue breakdown. Siberian Ginseng can work well, it sensitizes the body to cortisol which means that the body only needs to produce smaller amounts. It also deactivates the alarm reaction. I prefer Tu Si Zi (dodder seed) because it also has other benefits as well as lowering cortisol.

Histamine also stimulates saliva and histamine levels tend to be high in CFS. Reducing this is also helpful.

A simple test for urease is to swallow some acid to see if you burp within 60 seconds but often quicker. Suck as much saliva into your mouth before swallowing it to promote the reaction and then quickly swallow Lemon juice or vinegar in water. Wash your mouth with sodium bicarb immediately afterwards to protect your teeth and then with water. But make sure that you do not swallow any or it will falsify the test!!

Helicobacter pylori is not the only urease positive bacteria, there are many more which can cause urea breath test false positives. If you suspect that you might have a urease infection there are some herbs which can inhibit the urease enzyme, including Milk thistle, Chamomile and Ginkgo but after what I have read about Ginkgo I would not recommend using it. There are other herbs which can also inhibit urease.

Can something like Castor oil be used to treat excess urease/ammonia Carl, based on your research and experience?

 

[Carl]

Can something like Castor oil be used to treat excess urease/ammonia Carl, based on your research and experience?

I have not looked at Caster oil TBH. I am not aware of it having any Urease Inhibiting effects. I am only aware of a relatively small list of herbs which have been tested as having UI effects. Brown Seaweed is meant to have UI effects which was briefly mentioned in the paper linked below. There are almost certainly many other herbs with UI activity but most have not yet been identified.

Urease Inhibitory Activities of some Commonly Consumed Herbal Medicines
Ginkgo and Sumach followed by Chamomile are the three best UI herbs, Ginkgo being the best and strongest by far. Unfortunately it has some risks, liver cancer being one which is why I no longer use it which is a pity because the positive effects suit me by a considerable degree. Be aware that the German Chamomile mentioned in that paper is not identified correctly. Matricaria inodora is not German Chamomile it is False Chamomile which calls into question what they actually tested. Sumach looks promising, it has fairly reasonable UI activity and is also strongly anti-inflammatory.

Treating ammonia after it has been produced puts a big burden on the bodies detox and eliminatory channels. Stopping it being produced is a better method IMO. Destroying the pathogens causing it is the best method of all. Currently science/medicine does not recognise any other stomach pathogen other than h pylori which itself took some accepting. It makes no sense whatsoever that h pylori could be the only stomach pathogen because there are too many ulcer and stomach cancer cases with unidentified causes. I think that those cases are caused by other stomach pathogens IMO. Such pathogens affect everyone on this forum IMO.

 

[xploit316]

I have not looked at Caster oil TBH. I am not aware of it having any Urease Inhibiting effects. I am only aware of a relatively small list of herbs which have been tested as having UI effects. Brown Seaweed is meant to have UI effects which was briefly mentioned in the paper linked below. There are almost certainly many other herbs with UI activity but most have not yet been identified.

Urease Inhibitory Activities of some Commonly Consumed Herbal Medicines
Ginkgo and Sumach followed by Chamomile are the three best UI herbs, Ginkgo being the best and strongest by far. Unfortunately it has some risks, liver cancer being one which is why I no longer use it which is a pity because the positive effects suit me by a considerable degree. Be aware that the German Chamomile mentioned in that paper is not identified correctly. Matricaria inodora is not German Chamomile it is False Chamomile which calls into question what they actually tested. Sumach looks promising, it has fairly reasonable UI activity and is also strongly anti-inflammatory.

Treating ammonia after it has been produced puts a big burden on the bodies detox and eliminatory channels. Stopping it being produced is a better method IMO. Destroying the pathogens causing it is the best method of all. Currently science/medicine does not recognise any other stomach pathogen other than h pylori which itself took some accepting. It makes no sense whatsoever that h pylori could be the only stomach pathogen because there are too many ulcer and stomach cancer cases with unidentified causes. I think that those cases are caused by other stomach pathogens IMO. Such pathogens affect everyone on this forum IMO.

Thanks a lot Carl. We get Sumac here at the local grocery, will give it a go.

 

[pamojja]

Ginkgo being the best and strongest by far. Unfortunately it has some risks, liver cancer being one which is why I no longer use it which is a pity because the positive effects suit me by a considerable degree.

Didn't knew. Would you be so kind and post references?


PS: here a detailed write-up about SIBO: https://selfhacked.com/blog/sibo-causes-and-treatment/

 

[Carl]

Ginkgo biloba leaf extract induces DNA damage by inhibiting topoisomerase II activity in human hepatic cells

Extract of Ginkgo biloba exacerbates liver metastasis in a mouse colon cancer Xenograft model

It was a bit of a kicker to me as I mentioned. It was beneficial for increasing wakefulness-> in-hibit GABAA receptors and helpful for micro circulatory system which I am at high risk.

The results might be questionable in that one study seems to have used a Chinese extract which was not approved ie of questionable quality. I will need to read more on this because I would like to continue using it if possible.
See this link for why it was questioned which does also mention using very high dosages.

 

[Remi]

My SIBO lessened significantly on thyroid treatment (T4/T3 combo; T4 only did nothing). Low stomach acid is a symptom of hypothyroidism, as is constipation. Stomach ache makes you eat small meals. All these factors contribute to SIBO.

It's not gone completely, but fermenting gut is a symptom of ME. I'd need testing and antibiotics from a doctor and as said, it's problematic in NL.

 

[pamojja]

Ginkgo biloba leaf extract induces DNA damage by inhibiting topoisomerase II activity in human hepatic cells

Extract of Ginkgo biloba exacerbates liver metastasis in a mouse colon cancer Xenograft model

Thanks. Invitro and animal studies. Doesn't concerns me at all. Invitro is completely non-realistic to the bio-chemical environment, and usually concentrations used never possible, in a human body.

Animals cancer studies usually use genetically modified mice made prone to cancer. And as in this case injected - is completely irrelevant to how Gingko is usually used.

 

[kangaSue]

Wondering if I have SIFO (as well), as my b vitamins are very low without suppletion. So is ferritin and vit D, which could point to SIBO.

Vitamin D deficiency could be your key;
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27515213
[Vitamin D deficiency changes the intestinal microbiome reducing B vitamin production in the gut. The resulting lack of pantothenic acid adversely affects the immune system, producing a "pro-inflammatory" state associated with atherosclerosis and autoimmunity.]

 

[Remi]

I do supplete vit D, but it's not 250 like in the vit D protocol. I'd need magnesium injections, as I can't digest oral mag and foot baths are too labour intensive.