Severe fatigue due to low phosphorous

[pattismith]

@sb4
maybe you could improve your P level with vitamin D...

 

[Violeta]

@Mary I have been eating increased dairy these last few months with nothing drastic. Though phosphorus is so abundent that it shouldn't have been low at the time of testing (May) with the diet I was eating. I wonder what is causing it to be low? I haven't read much about phosphate diabetes but I suspect you have. Is this anything to do with regular diabetes and by extention deranged glucose metabolism in general or is it completely seperate?

I have read that if one is low in vitamin c, it will cause low phosphorus. Low phosphorus is actually what scurvy is. It might be easier to find a reason for low vitamin c.

 

[sb4]

I have read that if one is low in vitamin c, it will cause low phosphorus. Low phosphorus is actually what scurvy is. It might be easier to find a reason for low vitamin c.

Interesting. I had low Vit C on a urine oganic acids test. This could be a linkage to collagen issues or ROS which then impacts phosphorus.

My test was back in May and since then I have added vit C supplement back in.

 

[sb4]

@sb4
maybe you could improve your P level with vitamin D...

Perhaps. My D level is decent though via testing and I spend a lot of time shirtless in the sun.

 

[Mary]

I have read that if one is low in vitamin c, it will cause low phosphorus. Low phosphorus is actually what scurvy is. It might be easier to find a reason for low vitamin c.

@Violeta - where did you read this? From what I read, scurvy is associated with low vitamin C, not low phosphorus. And hypophosphatemia is often associated with low vitamin D, and rickets - something we rarely hear about nowadays!

 

[Mary]

@Mary Thanks, that makes sense. What phosphate supp you taking and at what dosage may I ask? I wish I had other recent blood work to look at to see if this was a trend but I don't.

I've taken these two products: Swanson Pure Monosodium Phosphate and Pure Monosodium Phosphate. They seem to work equally well. The Swanson product has a little scoop in it, which measures 1 gram, and equals 250 mg. of phosphate, and that's the dose I take about every 2 to 3 days. I just mix it in water or whatever I'm drinking. It's slightly salty. I use the same scoop for the Pure Monosodium Phosphate.

 

[Violeta]

@Violeta - where did you read this? From what I read, scurvy is associated with low vitamin C, not low phosphorus. And hypophosphatemia is often associated with low vitamin D, and rickets - something we rarely hear about nowadays!

I first read about it in a very old online book. Then I looked up phosphorus in the homeopathic materia medica.

This is much easier to find than the old book, but I will look for the book, too.

http://www.homeoint.org/books/boericmm/p/phos.htm

 

[Violeta]

I first read about it in a very old online book. Then I looked up phosphorus in the homeopathic materia medica.

This is much easier to find than the old book, but I will look for the book, too.

http://www.homeoint.org/books/boericmm/p/phos.htm

I am not saying this is the cause of low phosphorus for everyone. I am just saying it's a possibility. We call it vitamin C deficiency, but the vitamin C deficiency can be the cause of low phosphorus. Then, if one does have a vitamin c deficiency (and it can happen even with adequate intake of vitamin C), one must find the reason for the vitamin C deficiency. For example, I have 5 siblings, all eating the same thing, but I had a vitamin C deficiency.

One possible cause that I've found so far is a G6PD deficiency. With that, vitamin C goes down the oxalate pathway instead of vitamin C. (That may be a terrible wording, I'm not sure exactly how to say it)

The G6PD deficiency, I have seen, can be caused by a B6 deficiency. So you would have to work your way back to find out the root reason.

Here's the old book where I first saw this. I have no idea how I came upon it. If I read it wrong, let me know.

http://www.jbc.org/content/165/2/657.full.pdf

 

[Violeta]

Hi @sb4 - I don't know how significant your low phosphorous is but I know that low phosphorous/phosphate can cause severe fatigue, as well as other problems. It's needed for bone health and lots of things. Dairy products are a good source of phosphorous and there are supplements too.

I just saw an endo about 4 weeks ago and he ordered a bunch of blood work, including phosphorous, and I just looked and the lab didn't run the phosphorous test! Dang! I think the doctor overlooked this fact, so I've got to let him know. So I don't know what my blood phosphate levels are.

About your high potassium - I'm afraid I don't know anything about that. I'm much more familiar with low potassium, and as I've posted many times, persons with ME/CFS can have low intracellular potassium despite normal blood levels. But I don't have any idea whether your high potassium level is significant or not.

Yeah, from what I read, alkaline phosphatase does not directly correlate to low phosphorus, they seem to be entirely different things. I don't know if there is a relationship between them.

Sorry I could not be of more help! Since your phosphorus was low, you might try some dairy products or other food high in phosphate and see if it helps your energy. And meanwhile, I'm going to track down getting a phosphorus test!

One thing that might actually link the low alkaline phosphatase to low phosphorus is that when one has pyroluria, one usually has low alkaline phosphatase. (Alkaline phosphatase (ALP) is a zinc and magnesium dependent enzyme. When someone is consuming adequate magnesium and is still presenting with low ALP, zinc deficiency is a likely consideration, and this may represent another indication for KPU.)

So as I had said earlier, the B6 deficiency causes the G6PD deficiency, which causes Vitamin C being turned into oxalate instead of being used as vitamin c. And we know that pyroluria causes a B6 deficiency.

So is the alkaline phosphatase low because of the low phosphorus? I don't know.

 

[sb4]

I've taken these two products: Swanson Pure Monosodium Phosphate and Pure Monosodium Phosphate. They seem to work equally well. The Swanson product has a little scoop in it, which measures 1 gram, and equals 250 mg. of phosphate, and that's the dose I take about every 2 to 3 days. I just mix it in water or whatever I'm drinking. It's slightly salty. I use the same scoop for the Pure Monosodium Phosphate.

Its interesting that just 250mg spread over 2/3 days has a significant effect. I have just looked on cronometer and my phosphorous intake is 1200mg. So if I added the same dosage you are at it would only bring my total up to 1300mg ish. Doesn't seem that much.

Perhaps the supplement absorbs better. Are you taking it with food?

 

[Mary]

@sb4 - no, I just stir it into water and take it first thing in the morning with my BCAAs. It's possible that my body utilizes it in this form better than in food.

You know, we're all different. You might need more than me. I do know that when I first became aware of a phosphate deficiency, about 3 glasses of kefir was enough to make the severe fatigue start going away. It's been a couple of years since then and I can't remember if I had to drink kefir every day for awhile, and I can't remember when I added in the supplement. It's also been awhile since I've had the fatigue from low phosphorous. It generally would hit if I'd forgotten to take my supplement for maybe a week or so, because it wasn't one of my usual daily supplements. But now I'm pretty good at taking it around 3 times a week or so.

So I don't know what to tell you. Do you have symptoms of low phosphorous like extra fatigue? I've found there are so many different sources of fatigue with this illness! Low potassium, low phosphorous, low B6, low folate, low B12, herxing, detoxing, being sick, PEM, and I'm sure there are more!

If you get a supplement, I urge you to follow the cardinal rule I always follow which is to start low and go slow. I'm not that familiar with phosphorous. I feel very comfortable taking the extra potassium I take. I've done a lot of reading on it and do well with it. But I think phosphorous may be trickier, I don't know much about it. All I know is I'm keeping my symptoms at bay. But I am going to get that test done! I wish I'd noticed that the lab overlooked it sooner - the doctor didn't even notice. It wasn't part of the regular metabolic panel he ran, so now I'm really curious to see what it is --

 

[Hd-x]

One off the (for me) best working Phosphate supplements was imo Engange.
It contained CGP (Creatin-Glycerol-Phosphate) & L-Carnitine; spiced with well balanced small amounts Alpha Lipoic Acid and Astragin. The mixture had somewhat synergethic effects, unfortunatly Engage isnt availible anymore and buying those intrigens seperatly is somewhat difficult (exspecially raw CGP is hard to find)

 

[Violeta]

I am not saying this is the cause of low phosphorus for everyone. I am just saying it's a possibility. We call it vitamin C deficiency, but the vitamin C deficiency can be the cause of low phosphorus. Then, if one does have a vitamin c deficiency (and it can happen even with adequate intake of vitamin C), one must find the reason for the vitamin C deficiency. For example, I have 5 siblings, all eating the same thing, but I had a vitamin C deficiency.

One possible cause that I've found so far is a G6PD deficiency. With that, vitamin C goes down the oxalate pathway instead of vitamin C. (That may be a terrible wording, I'm not sure exactly how to say it)

The G6PD deficiency, I have seen, can be caused by a B6 deficiency. So you would have to work your way back to find out the root reason.

Here's the old book where I first saw this. I have no idea how I came upon it. If I read it wrong, let me know.

http://www.jbc.org/content/165/2/657.full.pdf

The book talks about loss of creatine phosphate in guinea pigs fed a vitamin c deficient diet, which I had to look up. "Phosphocreatine, also known as creatine phosphate (CP) or PCr (Pcr), is a phosphorylated creatine molecule that serves as a rapidly mobilizable reserve of high-energy phosphates in skeletal muscle and the brain to recycle adenosine triphosphate, the energy currency of the cell."

ATP!

 

[Violeta]

The need that thiamine raises for phosphate might be met with this form of thiamine. What do you think?
https://www.metabolics.com/vitamin-...sgi5EqqE5bdw0Qtw6MvNfaLdAPwJmgHvTWPdHfsQnj_yU

 

[pamojja]

The need that thiamine raises for phosphate might be met with this form of thiamine. What do you think?

Though I'm not familiar with this form of thiamine, I doubt it could alleviate a phosphate deficiency. One drop recommented per day contains only 389mcg of thiamine, therefore I assume the phosphate content also not exceeding a few hundreds of micrograms.

In comparison, when I meassured and calculated my phosphate intake from diet, I found I get about 1.8 grams per day. Thats 1 800 milligrams, or 1 800 000 micrograms.

 

[Violeta]

Though I'm not familiar with this form of thiamine, I doubt it could alleviate a phosphate deficiency. One drop recommented per day contains only 389mcg of thiamine, therefore I assume the phosphate content also not exceeding a few hundreds of micrograms.

In comparison, when I meassured and calculated my phosphate intake from diet, I found I get about 1.8 grams per day. Thats 1 800 milligrams, or 1 800 000 micrograms.

Ok, thanks, good logic.

 

[sb4]

I have found an interesting theory by user Dejurgen on health rising here. He talks about 2,3 - Bisphosphoglycerate deficiency causing RBC to hold on to their oxygen too tightly. He speculates that this could be a defensive reaction by the body to excessive ROS/ immune activation.

Anyway what caught my eye was this extract from a study "Although it is not entirely clear how intracellular phosphate level is regulated, extracellular phosphate seems to affect it to a certain degree as hypophosphatemia is known to induce tissue hypoxia by lowering 2,3-diphosphoglycerate level in red blood cells ."

Perhaps this helps explain @Mary improvement with phosphate and my deficient phosphate levels. Perhaps I should try a supplement of phosphate and see what happens.

 

[Mary]

I have found an interesting theory by user Dejurgen on health rising here.

That's a link to an interesting post @sb4 ! Low phosphate can cause severe fatigue, among several other nasty symptoms. I've experienced the fatigue. Also, pills tend to get stuck in my throat when I'm low in phosphate. hypophosphatemia weakens our muscles. So I think looking into a supplement might be a good idea.

What I did when I first suspected hypophosphatemia after I started taking thiamine (after initial boost in energy followed by severe fatigue - refeeding syndrome effect) was to drink several glasses of kefir. Dairy products are high in phosphate. Within a few hours my energy started returning, and not too long after that I bought a phosphate supplement. They're sort of hard to find, but Swanson Vitamins makes one . Also I bought a similar product on Amazon (food grade monosodium phosphate) but it's no longer available. Bulk Supplements has a dicalcium phosphate supplement which I have not tried and probably won't either, because of the calcium.

Let us know how it goes if you try a supplement --

 

[bread.]

I have found an interesting theory by user Dejurgen on health rising here. He talks about 2,3 - Bisphosphoglycerate deficiency causing RBC to hold on to their oxygen too tightly. He speculates that this could be a defensive reaction by the body to excessive ROS/ immune activation.

Anyway what caught my eye was this extract from a study "Although it is not entirely clear how intracellular phosphate level is regulated, extracellular phosphate seems to affect it to a certain degree as hypophosphatemia is known to induce tissue hypoxia by lowering 2,3-diphosphoglycerate level in red blood cells ."

Perhaps this helps explain @Mary improvement with phosphate and my deficient phosphate levels. Perhaps I should try a supplement of phosphate and see what happens.

Hey,

did you try the phosphate supplement?

My blood phosphate is low also.