Scientific Antifungal Treatment: Looking for information

[Waverunner]

HI all,

I was just listening to the new TWiV episode. Montoya somehow came to my mind because he is an virologist and I looked up his page at Stanford. He is doing a lot of research about fungus right now.

http://med.stanford.edu/profiles/Jose_Montoya

Yield of diagnostic procedures for invasive fungal infections in neutropenic febrile patients with chest computed tomography abnormalities. Ho DY, Lin M, Schaenman J, Rosso F, Leung AN, Coutre SE, Sista RR, Montoya JG. Mycoses. 2011; 54 (1): 59-70

Challenges and pitfalls of morphologic identification of fungal infections in histologic and cytologic specimens: a ten-year retrospective review at a single institution. Sangoi AR, Rogers WM, Longacre TA, Montoya JG, Baron EJ, Banaei N. Am J Clin Pathol. 2009; 131 (3): 364-75

Trends in invasive disease due to Candida species following heart and lung transplantation. Schaenman JM, Rosso F, Austin JM, Baron EJ, Gamberg P, Miller J, Oyer PE, Robbins RC, Montoya JG. Transpl Infect Dis. 2009; 11 (2): 112-21​

I wanted to know if anyone else here has knowledge of fungal infections and how relevant they are for CFS. I'm not interested in all this candida scam on the internet. You just need to google "fungus" and a million of sites pop up which all try to sell their bogus miracle supplements. My questions would be, if you can see invasive fungal infections with your eye or if they are below the surface of organs or mucous membranes . Are their any tests which are validated and useful in order to diagnose fungal infections? What treatments are recommended?

Greets

 

[Sing]

When the immune system is low, fungi can get out of balance both internally and on the skin. Women with low immune function, for instance, have chronic vaginal yeast infections. This is true with HIV infections as well. What is needed are treatments which correct the imbalance (the idea that you are going to "eliminate" a fungus from your body all together when you have low immune function is a pipe dream). And these treatments should be the least toxic as possible. Using strong anti-fungal drugs for a long period can result, in some cases, in kidney damage, for example--permanent kidney damage.

 

[stp]

35yr male here. I had Seborrheic dermatitis develop on my cheek about a year after I first became sick. It is believed to be caused by the body's inability to control the growth of yeast. Since it started, it has slowly spread to much of one side of my face and across my forehead. More recently and unpleasantly it has spread to my genital area causing periodic itchiness and reddish skin. I also believe it has traveled into my urethra. A few weeks ago my urethra became very red and irritated and really hurt to urinate. I felt sick like I had a fever, had pains in my intestine and groin area. Went to the dr and they thought I had a bladder infection so they put me on antibiotics right away. I took those for a week and they did nothing. The urine analysis came back negative for bladder infection and also for whatever strains of yeast they tested for. Over the past couple weeks the symptoms have gotten a bit better but still wax and wane. I plan on calling a urologist but am really frustrated that this hasn't been able to be diagnosed as anything yet. The Seborrheic dermatitis is common in people who have suppressed immune systems such as AIDS, which I've been tested for a couple times and don't have. All this stuff scares me because each year new and more serious symptoms crop up. I feel like my body is less and less able to fight off infections/colds and yet I'm doing nothing about it aside from supplements.

So yes, I do believe, at least in my case, that fungal infections are a serious component of CFS/ME. I don't have answers for you as far as tests but would love to hear from anyone else in a similar situation. What are the tests/treaments that diagnosed and hopefully cured your symptoms? Thanks

 

[Sing]

stp, I am really sorry about how overtaken your skin and body is with this fungal infection! I have constant seborrehic dermatitis on my scalp and vaginal yeast infection. I treat both locally. For the scalp I only use ph balanced orgainic shampoo, etc. with no fragrance and for the other area, a vinegar and water douche either every day or every other day, to correct that ph. These aren't cures but are non-toxic management tools, shall we say. I expect a good herbalist might be able to help with other remedies. I think of trees which have anit-fungal defenses in their bark. I think of myself sometimes as like a tree, an old or weak tree, which shows infection from fungi. Fungi are all about breaking down life forms to return their elements to the soil, to nourish new life. They are nature's composters, and serve an essential function. There is no vacuum in the life cycle process.

What we need to do is to strengthen our immune systems and also to get help from natural or non-toxic anti-fungal remedies, I'd say. If I had dermatitis like you, running all over my body, I would try to work out a body rinse with some herbal product in the water, including something to return the skin's ph to a more acidic state. Those fungi thrive in alkaline environments. That is my view.

 

[Waverunner]

@stp/sing: Has anyone of you tried Nystatin? There clearly is some kind of immune dysfunction in CFS where PWCs are less able to fight off infections.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nystatin

 

[Sing]

I know that Nystatin is used when people with Chronic Lyme are being treated with long term antibiotics, which open the field for fungi internally.

stp, I recall that rosemary is considered good for skin fungus, and also tea tree oil (which is very concentrated). For a rosemary rinse, one can pour boiling water over a lot of fresh or dried rosemary and leave for at least 4 hrs or overnight, then refrigerate and use on the skin. I don't know quantities, but one could go by trial and error. Just add more water if the solution feels too sharp. There may be other natural remedies to help, and some of these are less expensive, less toxic and smell a whole lot better than what doctors might offer. I think the more you can beat back the fungus, the better, because it sounds as though you are having an exponential explosion of it. Anti-biotics only make it worse--

 

[Lou]

Hi Sing,

In your post #4 you say fungi thrive in alkaline enviroment. That we need our ph more acidic. You sure? I think it's the opposite. I get things backward all the time, just checking.

 

[Sing]

Yes, I am sure.

 

[Lou]

Does that mean sugar and red meat, highly acidic foods, should help fight fungus? Don't think so.

 

[ukxmrv]

Talking about Nystatin takes me back to what the initial poster "Waverunner" was referring us to as the Candida scams.

My 1980's ME group had a local GP interested in the possible link between ME and Candida. At the time there was a book by Dr Crook (yes really) and claims that Candida could cause ME. We did the diets, the supplements (many), drugs (Nystatin, ketakonazole etc) and no one was cured or even moderately helped with their ME symptoms.

Testing included swabs of the mouth and infected areas plus there was a skin test.

STP (poster above seems to have developed something awful and fungal that spread).

Don't know how many ME people are affected like that and if that is the same as the fungal infections mentioned in the links above. Really sorry to hear about it SPP.

For localised infections I use a tea tree wash and the anticandida drugs. Washes/diet and supplements have only been good for small, very minor outbreaks for me. Nystatin the worst of the drugs (least effective).

 

[justy]

Hi I have had/probably do still have a chronic systemic yeast/fungal infection. You cant really test for them as we are all covered in yeats inside and out antway, i believe that tests that claim to do this are a scam. Tests that show fungal infections of the lungs etc may be valid but if you had that you would be very very seriously ill and in hospital. Fungal lung infections kill people. The only way i have found to control and cut down on mine (i have it in mouth throat, oeasophageas, feet, and also skin rash on body and flaky itchy scalp) is to do the full strict anti candida diet with antifunglas such as garlic and caprylic acid alongside kefir for repopulation. I take a course of fluconazole everytime i take antibiotics, which can be a few times a year as i have a fibrotic band in my lung with possible bronchiectasis.
Long term Nystatin is not a good drug as it can cause rebound fungus due to its ingredients (sorry cant remember the details) Fluconazole is well tolerated but can become toxic to the kidneys -also the fungas can become immune to it (like antibiotic immune infections) if you have serious systemic fungal infection like me then this si to be avoided at all costs because if it did spread to a major organ they would have nothing to treat it with. Other antifungal drugs are toxic to the kidneys.
The candida thing is not a scam, but you dont need expensive miracle supplements, also it wont make your M.E better if that is what you have, but it can help with some symptoms e.g for me my brain fog gets better if im strict about my diet etc.

All the best, Justy

 

[m1she11e]

I read the Dr. Crook CFS/Candida book back in the day as well and did a whole lot to kill Candida including diet, supplements, Nystatin (without sweetener) and a short course of Diflucan. I got no relief. At the time though, I was so much better (before even trying the Candida program) than I am now.

In the last few years, after getting extremely sick I got to a point where I had a sinus infection that wouldnt go away and what seemed like a bladder infection but no bacteria in the urine. Finally, my CFS doc put me on about 3 weeks of daily Diflucan and both of those things went away. I find now when I am in a real down time, I get the sinus and bladder issues along with a sore on my elbow that has been diagnosed as fungal. I feel beyond my normal sick when this happens and only a few weeks of Diflucan pulls me out of it. It brings me back to a some what functioning level of sick.

I do think that fungus is part of the puzzle. Does it come along because the immune system is already weak? Some believe the fungus is the cause of the weak immune system...?? Regardless, for me it has become an obvious piece of the puzzle. I think it is interesting that Montoya is studying fungus so much too.

I realize that Diflucan is hard on the Liver and Kidneys but I think the fungal infections are really hard on us too. Obviously Diflucan isnt the cure as I have to go back to it every few months. I have tried almost every natural anti fungal known to man and have never gotten relief. Diflucan provides relief after only a few doses.
I already eat very healthy so I know diet alone cannot control it either. Not sure what the answer is but for now I use Diflucan and I will watch for something better.

Thanks for starting this thread!

Michelle

 

[Jenny]

That's interesting Michelle - what dose of Diflucan do you take?

Jenny

 

[MonkeyMan]

Talking about Nystatin takes me back to what the initial poster "Waverunner" was referring us to as the Candida scams.

My 1980's ME group had a local GP interested in the possible link between ME and Candida. At the time there was a book by Dr Crook (yes really) and claims that Candida could cause ME. We did the diets, the supplements (many), drugs (Nystatin, ketakonazole etc) and no one was cured or even moderately helped with their ME symptoms.

Maybe no one in your group was helped, but I can tell you that Dr Crook's book (along with Dr Truss's) brought me from "barely alive" to "doing pretty well". Once I started taking nystatin and following the diet Dr Crook recommended, the transformation was amazing. My cystic acne went away, major intestinal/digestive issues were resolved, and my energy level, mood, and cognitive functioning improved dramatically.

Anyone who doesn't believe that intestinal candida overgrowth can produce serious problems simply doesn't know what the hell they're talking about.

Drew

 

[Sing]

Hi Lou,

I'm not talking about that acid/alkaline blood thing. I'm not sure about the science of that, actually. Might be fine; I just don't know. As for the specific foods you mentioned, I do know that sugar makes internal yeast multiply. Sugar is the number one thing to avoid on an anti-Candida diet too. Any form of sugar as well as carbs which turn into sugar fast will feed Candida. Of course we need some carbs, so it then becomes a matter of proportion, like the Zone diet prescribes, for instance.

Again, a warning about the kidneys. I took Diflucan for months and I do now have abnormally low kidney function. I wish I had skipped the Diflucan or had even yearly tests for kidney function, but these didn't happen that often. Internal use of Ketoconazole is also supposed to damage the kidneys. I use it externally on my toes as needed, because it beats back the fungal infections there. I wouldn't mind using the slower OTC anti-fungals except that I also have Small Fiber Neuropathy and infections on my toes when they break the skin become dangerous. It is like having diabetes and any foot infection. So using a strong control there, like Ketoconazole, is important.

 

[mellster]

Nystatin and candida have nothing to do with scams per se - Nystatin is probably the best-tolerated effective drug against candida which can cause problems if overgrown - likely not ME though Also diets are a tricky thing, candida can survive on any diet (and some candida is normal) - even if it thrives more on carbs you should be careful about co-infections where carbs are indicated such as CPN, any ATP depleting processes require the body to refuel with some carbs (preferredly pentose carbs) and so complete sugar avoidance might not be what you want. I think a normal, maybe reduced carb, diet supplemented with nystatin for as long as needed should work well. Also any of the harder antifungal drugs mentioned should only be necessary for more serious and acute fungal infections other than candida.

 

[Sing]

Marco, I agree with you.

 

[Waverunner]

Nystatin and candida have nothing to do with scams per se - Nystatin is probably the best-tolerated effective drug against candida which can cause problems if overgrown - likely not ME though Also diets are a tricky thing, candida can survive on any diet (and some candida is normal) - even if it thrives more on carbs you should be careful about co-infections where carbs are indicated such as CPN, any ATP depleting processes require the body to refuel with some carbs (preferredly pentose carbs) and so complete sugar avoidance might not be what you want. I think a normal, maybe reduced carb, diet supplemented with nystatin for as long as needed should work well. Also any of the harder antifungal drugs mentioned should only be necessary for more serious and acute fungal infections other than candida.

I never said that Nystatin was a scam. In fact I'm trying it today. When I speak about scam I mean certain pages that list up nearly all symptoms available, blame them on candida and recommend their supplement as a cure. Many people say that Threelac for a example could be scam. It contains enterococcus faecalis which in addition to all the detrimental facts below was shown to play a big role in intestinal cancer:

http://www.yeastinfectionadvisor.com/threelacreview.html

The problem bacteria seems to be enterococcus faecalis and it is enough of a concern that the Australian Department of Health and Aging has labeled it a serious health hazard in Australia.

Basically the findings said this: Members of the meeting noted that a consultant (Natren) noted that this bacteria was not of low risk, due to its implication in transfer of antibiotic resistance in a hospital context. "Natren said that bacillus coagulans or lactobacillis sporogenes, bacillus laterosporus, enterococcus faecalis, and enterococcus faecium should not be permitted in therapeutic goods on safety grounds. Natren claims that E faecium and E faecalis are able to acquire antibiotic resistance and is a common opportunistic pathogen in U.S. hospitals."

Natren was asked to provide scientific evidence to prove what they said but it appears they never did. The Australian government has issued health warnings concerning enterococcus faecalis, and enterococcus faecium.

Since that meeting in 1998 the Australian Department of Health and Aging has approved new drugs in 2005 to combat infections caused by enterococcus faecalis.

As of September 22, 2008; Australia has approved enterococcus faecalis and enterococcus faecium as starter cultures.

The Canadian government has listed enterococcus faecalis as a health hazard and infectious agent. They claim enterococcus faecalis is responsible for 9% of bacteremia infections, 16% of urinary tact infections, and 5 to 15% of bacterial endocarditis infections. You read about what the Canadian government has to say about enterococcus faecalis here.

There is an article about enterococcus faecalis and bacterial endocarditis here as well.

The New England Journal of Medicine has this to say about enterococcus faecalis. "Although Enterococcus faecalis was once regarded as nonpathogenic, this opportunistic gram-positive coccus now ranks among the most troublesome hospital pathogens. It has intrinsic resistance to many antibiotics and a remarkable capacity for developing resistance to others (x17,160)." There is a picture at the above link if you care to see it.

The Doctors Guide confirms they have linked this bacteria to mortality due to enterococcal bacteremia and is the third largest cause of hospital infections. It also causes urinary tract, abdominal, pelvic, and neonatal infections.

On the positive side if you want to call it that. The Channing Laboratory, Brigham and Women's Hospital, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA, USA say that; "Enterococcus faecalis is part of the normal gastrointestinal flora in humans".

 

[ukxmrv]

Sorry Drew, I had forgotten that there was one member of this group helped a great deal by that approach.

When personally I mean that Candida scam was the belief back in the 80's that it could cause ME. All our group were pre-CFS epidemic viral ME people.

 

[mellster]

Waverunner, you are right about these sites blaming candida for everything and peddling "cures" for it - but they would have no platform whatsoever if more conventional doctors would finally recognized the fact that some patients (and not just heavily immunocompromised ones) do have problems with candida overgrowth and treat then accordingly. The same goes for the importance of elevated IGG viral titers