Pregnancy and ME/cfs

[andyguitar]

If you had ME/CFS that got better when pregnant tell us what happened. And why you think things improved.

 

[Hufsamor]

Ive heard both happened , several times...either people gets much sicker or much better.
That goes for several diseases.
And as far as I know, nobody knows exactly why, but they believe it have to do with changes in hormones.
But a better explanation, which hormones are pushing which buttons, I don't think they know...?
(I suspect maybe @Hip have a clue? Or?)

 

[Hip]

Estriol and progesterone are the two hormones that greatly increase during pregnancy, so I have always suspected that these might be involved in the often reported amelioration of ME/CFS symptoms during pregnancy.

Estriol level increase a great deal in pregnancy, and this hormone has anti-autoimmune properties (and in fact has been shown effective as a treatment for multiple sclerosis).

 

[PeeWee]

I'm pretty certain Jessica Taylor-Bearman (A Girl Behind Dark Glasses / The World of One Room) experienced improved health during her recent pregnancy. And I remember Professor Don Staines at an IiME conference a couple of years back saying his daughter's health had improved during pregnancy.

 

[andyguitar]

Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin looks interesting @Hufsamor ,but like anything else that might help there are going to be side effects for anyone who tries it.

 

[Hufsamor]

Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin looks interesting @Hufsamor ,but like anything else that might help there are going to be side effects for anyone who tries it.

Interesting!
I don't think I've even heard of this before....
When I googled, this came up:
Function. Human chorionic gonadotropin interacts with the LHCG receptor of the ovary and promotes the maintenance of the corpus luteum during the beginning of pregnancy. This allows the corpus luteum to secrete the hormone progesterone during the first trimester.

So who knows?
When it comes to the chorionic gonadotropin it might be the progesterone that gives positive results?

(You are not planning a pregnancy, are you? As a cure?)

 

[WinterWren]

I had one pregnancy with a major improvement and now I’m in the 4th month of my second pregnancy. No major improvement, yet, fingers crossed.

The improvement didn’t come until sometime in the second trimester. There was no hint of improvement before that.

The only paper I know of on pregnancy and ME definitely mentioned something about most improvements not coming until the second trimester. With my pregnancy I’m confident that it wasn’t just because of the added pregnancy symptoms you typically get first trimester.

That’s what makes me think it’s not HCG (it’s only high in the first trimester) and that it’s likely not progesterone either (it starts shooting up right away). But of course that’s just a hunch and it could just take time for whatever to have an affect.

Estriol doesn’t rise much until the second trimester from what charts show, but I don’t know much about it.

Then there’s all the immune system changes, metabolism changes, etc.

 

[andyguitar]

I've been looking at some graphs for how the levels of HCG change during pregnancy: Non pregnant levels are 55-200 ng/ml, 5 weeks 18- 7,340, 25-40 weeks 3,640-117,000. Levels drop to normal 'Shortly after birth'-whatever that means. Yes @WinterWren it could take time for the positive effect of 'Whatever it is' to take effect.

 

[WinterWren]

I've been looking at some graphs for how the levels of HCG change during pregnancy: Non pregnant levels are 55-200 ng/ml, 5 weeks 18- 7,340, 25-40 weeks 3,640-117,000. Levels drop to normal 'Shortly after birth'-whatever that means. Yes @WinterWren it could take time for the positive effect of 'Whatever it is' to take effect.

 

[WinterWren]

Yes but if you post all the weeks or a chart it’s clearer to see that it peaks at 9-12 weeks, which is still the first trimester, then it starts to drop (9 - 12 weeks: 25,700 - 288,000 mIU/ml, 13 - 16 weeks: 13,300 - 254,000 mIU/ml). That’s why those with morning sickness are told they’ll feel better after the first trimester (when it’s generally dropping not rising, they attribute the nausea to it).

 

[WinterWren]

But you’re right that it can stay very high throughout even if it is dropping. Lots of variation too.

 

[Hufsamor]

Estriol doesn’t rise much until the second trimester from what charts show, but I don’t know much about it.

Increased estriol sounds a likely reason for better wellbeing.
Decrease of estriol (if I'm not very mistaken) is thought to be the main reason for decreasing health in the menopause.
Many people with me/cfs gets very sick during this period
And I really believe the body reacts rather quickly, I've always had hard periods, and the first time I saw an overview of the female hormones through a month, it was like a look at an overview at my health s ups and downs.

(It's never as easy as to point to one specific reason, it's always a combination of some sort. But after the discussion between you and @andyguitar , I guess I keep my bet on estriol over progesterone?

On the other hand....maybe a pregnant person gets the perfect combination of the two in the second trimester?

It would, in a matter of fact, been fun to try small doses of hcg to see if it works.
(If anyone reads this, don't do it. It's not recommended. But I would have liked to try anyway)

 

[Zebra]

Hi, @andyguitar!

I was online doing some research for myself (re: low CD 56 NK cells) when I came across an article I thought you might find interesting.

It's not about hormone fluctuation during pregnancy, but about natural killer cell activity during pregnancy.

I do not have the energy to read the article, but wanted to pass along to you in case you wanted to take a look.

https://doi.org/10.1210/er.2003-0021

Best,
Z

 

[andyguitar]

Thanks for that @Zebra I will check it out.

But you’re right that it can stay very high throughout even if it is dropping. Lots of variation too.

Looking at the graphs (there are lots to choose from!) what is most striking is the level of variation. And even when the level drops it's still much higher than in non-pregnant. I've been reading upon HCG and there is much of interest. I will post a simple guide to what it does soon.

 

[andyguitar]

Here are a few things HCG does: Increases Testosterone; Stimulates thyroid; Increases levels of the enzyme IDO which breaks down Tryptophan, an amino acid assocated with fatigue; Moderates the immune system damping it down a bit; Increases Progesterone. There is quite a lot on the web about it being used (and abused) as a weight loss treatment.

 

[andyguitar]

Try putting the hormone Relaxin into your search box. Looks interesting.

 

[Hufsamor]

I'm really not sure about this,
it seems to be highest at he time of the month when Ive been most sick,
and highest at the time of a pregnancy when the woman usually are most sick as well.
But a quick glance at the search results in the forum looks kind of interesting nevertheless. I might look more into it.

 

[andyguitar]

Ever heard about low blood volume being a problem in me/cfs? Something which when treated can bring about an improvement in symptoms. The attached file gives a fairly easy to understand run-down on some of the changes to the cardio-vascular system during pregnancy. Page 1005 'Pregnancy Hormonal changes' and page 1006 'Changes in plasma volume.....' are interesting. In pregnancy blood volume increases by between 20% to 100%. Relaxin is probably one of the hormones that brings this about.

 

[andyguitar]

This graph shows the levels of HCG and Relaxin levels during pregnancy. And a few others. As you can see HCG does not go down to the level before pregnancy. The rate of increase goes down.

 

[Hufsamor]

https://www.mssociety.org.uk/resear...QaDDf8hCnidB54uCvUDKLNyuwL7LtdqZcaDuAlH19fZc#