Nuerotransmitter fatigue

[HABS93]

Recently I've been trying lots of different supplements and the only thing that really works was Supplements that affect my transmitters. So I did some more research and figured out there's research on nuerotransmitter fatigue . The 4 types of neurotransmitters have been affects from the damage I caused . Confirming that it's not a traditional CFS/ME from a virus or other causes. The only thing is other then increasing my amino acid intake and cutting sugar out of my diet. I don't know what else to do. I can't even find research on what MDMA does other then causing down regulation of serotonin. So taking 5-HTP and GABA Im trying now . I just don't know what exactly nuerotransmitters do that affect your eyes concentration, Spaced out 24/7, fatigue.

 

[Hope4]

Hi, HAB. I'm sending you good thoughts.

I'm still working on this, myself, as I find it quite a puzzle.

I limit my caffeine intake. (Weak black tea.)

First thing in the morning, I take systemic enzymes. Ca. 30 minutes after that, I am now taking Branch Chance Amino Acids, and am experimenting with how much, how often, and at what intervals.


Just before breakfast, I take a couple of drops of iodine in water, and L-Carnitine, and Acetyl-L-Carnitine.

I try to stick to low carb foods, and not eat very much PUFA (due to inflammatory nature of excess Omega-6).

Before bed, I take minerals, L-Glutamine, Inositol, Glycine, and my other supplements.

Sometimes I take GABA, and/or lithium orotate when there is agitation in the brain that won't let go. I also do some specific exercises and stretches that calm my brain (yoga, and yoghurt produce GABA).

The supplements I named are the ones I know of that seem to directly affect my brain function, and perhaps endorphins.

It is a puzzle to find what wakes up brain function, without overstimulation, and keeps things calm, without drowsiness.

Hope something there is of use.

I wish you all the best.

 

[Float]

I took tramadol for pain which is a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor and it completely reversed orthistatic hypotension! I believe it was the norepinephrine action but could have been something else.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

@HABS93
Not sure we're talking about the same MDMA (methylenedioxymethamphetamine), but it's common name is Molly, or Ecstasy, a sort of cross between methamphetamine and mescaline, and it's a central nervous system stimulant (serotonin, epinephrine, norepinephrine) and an hallucinogenic. It gives the user a sensation of incredible energy, empathy, confidence, and fearlessness.

It's down regulation capacities stem from the overstimulation of the above neurotransmitters. What you describe sounds like a not unusual side effect of going off it. Minerals, especially magnesium and some potassium and a natural (not processed and iodized) salt would probably help, but when the neuro system has been messed with, time is the greatest healer, along with some supplementation.

Not sure 5HTP, a precursor to serotonin, and GABA, both of which have probably already been down regulated and may or may not tolerate more stimulation, are good answers, but in truth I can't offer much of anything here.

I do highly recommend the magnesium (glycinate is the best form, no bowel side effects, very well tolerated in even large amounts by most people), since it can help cut across NMDA reactions, which may be likely if any of this is on target.

If it's a different MDMA, I've just lost 20 minutes or so I'll never get back Please advise, yes?

 

[Float]

@YippeeKi YOW !! If a hypothetical ME person with OH took heaps of molly in their youth could the downstream effect be low neurotransmitters well into middle age ?

 

[HABS93]

@HABS93
Not sure we're talking about the same MDMA (methylenedioxymethamphetamine), but it's common name is Molly, or Ecstasy, a sort of cross between methamphetamine and mescaline, and it's a central nervous system stimulant (serotonin, epinephrine, norepinephrine) and an hallucinogenic. It gives the user a sensation of incredible energy, empathy, confidence, and fearlessness.

It's down regulation capacities stem from the overstimulation of the above neurotransmitters. What you describe sounds like a not unusual side effect of going off it. Minerals, especially magnesium and some potassium and a natural (not processed and iodized) salt would probably help, but when the neuro system has been messed with, time is the greatest healer, along with some supplementation.

Not sure 5HTP, a precursor to serotonin, and GABA, both of which have probably already been down regulated and may or may not tolerate more stimulation, are good answers, but in truth I can't offer much of anything here.

I do highly recommend the magnesium (glycinate is the best form, no bowel side effects, very well tolerated in even large amounts by most people), since it can help cut across NMDA reactions, which may be likely if any of this is on target.

If it's a different MDMA, I've just lost 20 minutes or so I'll never get back Please advise, yes?

@YippeeKi YOW !! yes the same MDMA. Unfortunately I did alot from 17-24. I wasn't sure if I should be taking anything. I didn't know if GABA was a good idea or not. I do take magnesium threonate . Not sure what the differences are between glycinate. The confusing part is I can't really find much information on what I did. This all started when I quit weed ten months ago. Since then I entered this weird brain fog and chronic fatigue. My eyes feel like they can't keep up with processing images fast and sometimes gets confused. This usually happens if I smoke weed. It's just extremely tough to live and gold a job down.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

@YippeeKi YOW !! If a hypothetical ME person with OH took heaps of molly in their youth could the downstream effect be low neurotransmitters well into middle age ?

@HABS93 @Float,
I can't vouch for this, it's just an opinion based on the damage that any neuro-scrambling drug can do, and that includes anti-d's, anti-anxiety drugs, gabapentin (Neurontin), hypnotics, MDMA, you know, the whole spectrum, but I'd say it's not impossible. A fragile equilibrium and neuro up-regulation might have been managed when the brain was younger and less stressed by life and other illnesses, but if other shite hits the fan, that equilibrium might be broken, and all bets are off.

MDMA, like anti-d's, anti-anxiety, and the other array of deadly crap that Drs hand out, screws with your brain in ways that medical science not only doesn't fully understand, but doesn't even seem to try to. If someone is having side effects that mimic MDMA withdrawal, it wouldn’t hurt to assume that as fact, and treat those effects along with whatever else is happening, ME-wise. Maybe try what worked for me, but remember that we’re all different as is each individual’s expression of this uber-vexing kaleidoscopic illness and all its little hitch-hikers, so maybe do a little google and some experimenting, or both.

I treated the massive anxiety that hit me a ways into the ME/CFS with everything I could throw at it, because I was on the verge of giving up in the worst possible way, the panic attacks were so bad and so long (19 hours at a time, or shrter wave-upon-wave attacks day after day after day after ...well, you know). After a year of that, I would have chewed off my right arm to stop them.

What worked for me after a lot of trial and error was the afore-mentioned magnesium glycinate, 50 mgs every 30 - 60 min's, sometimes as much as 1200 mgs a day, 0.25 mcg doses of melatonin on a nothing-else-is-working, as-needed basis, Vit C doses several times a day, cutting out all sources of additional neurotoxins like free-glutamic acid / glutamate (there's literally close to 90 different names for these substances, but anything hydrolyzed or called an 'extract' or 'concentrate' is suspicious), and their more honestly named sibling, MSG.

I was suddenly reactive to almost every food and supplement known, so diet was very restricted. I also cut out calcium, because somewhere in the Krebs cycle, I think, it super-charges the neurotoxic effects of glutamate on the NMDA receptors and huuuugely magnifies negative effects of anything neurotoxic. I survived on a good multi (Vital Nutrients, without copper, iron, or boron) and gave up on the tiny fragment of what little was left of what we’ll call my social life, like brief phone chats with friends, because the ME fatigue forced me to use what little energy I had very cautiously. And even a brief chat would drain me to bottoms of my feet for days on end.

@HABS93

Since then I entered this weird brain fog and chronic fatigue. My eyes feel like they can't keep up with processing images fast and sometimes gets confused. This usually happens if I smoke weed. It's just extremely tough to live and gold a job down.

..... yeah, the blurry eyes, like super-slow tracking? Those could definitely be part of the neuro-effects of extended use of any brain-altering drug. Also bad brain fog, fatigue, confusion, insomnia, bad tachy palpitations, unresponsive marionette jerky muscles in legs and arms, just a whole cornucopia of crap. I'm super awed that you can manage a job at all. I wish I had a definite fix or palliative for you, I know it’s hell. I can only share what worked for me under somewhat different circumstances, but ones that produced very similar effects to what you're going thru.

I'm not sure about Mag L-Threonate. Threonic acid is a sugar acid derived from threose, and its L-isomer is a metabolite of ascorbic acid. I know it's touted as crossing the BBB, and therefore being superior to other forms of mag, but there are conflicting studies, some of which dismiss threonate as a clever marketing ploy. Magnesium L-threonate was discovered and patented by MIT researchers, based on its purported and unique ability to cross the BBB and boost brain levels of magnesium, but altho studies attesting to this are mentioned on various sites touting its unique value, no direct citations or links are usually provided and they’re hard to find. I have some in file, but am too tired today to dig thru and find them among the 1000’s of research papers I’ve saved during the course of all this.

The bottom line is if it works for you, that's all that matters. It's comparatively expensive, so if it doesn't seem to be doing the job, you might consider trying Solgar's Chelated Magnesium (bound to the amino acid glycine, an amino that provides a mild calming effect, and for some reason didn’t trigger a free-amino effect on my neuro system), which is a neatly rounded rectangular 100 mg tablet, easy to clip in half for 50 mg doses.

I found that taking several larger doses of mag gly during the day didn't do much of anything for me, which is when I started experimenting with the 50 mg mini-doses at close intervals, and that started to turn things around in a meaningful way. It took several weeks before the improvements were definite, and the longer I stuck to it, the better it got.

Because magnesium is metabolized in a very small area of one or the other of your kidneys, it’s important to drink plenty of water. My goal is 3 liters a day, which I rarely make, but never less than 2.

Later, I added a potassium gluconate potion with a small amount of sea salt and cinnamon that I take first thing in the AM.

All in all, I’m so much better, anxiety-wise, than I was about 14 or 15 months ago, but I still have bad days, they're just more the exception and not the rule as they were previously They usually occur when for whatever reason I’ve forgotten to keep my magnesium intake up, altho I can get by on a lot less than before. And sometimes they just happen because. Gotta love ME.

I so hope this helps bring you some relief and help. If I can think of anything else, I’ll come back and post it, and if you have questions, tag me.

 

[Float]

Thanks @YippeeKi YOW !! x

 

[Hope4]

@YippeeKi YOW !! Thanks for the micro-dosing idea for magnesium. I'm glad you came up with a protocol that helped.

 

[HABS93]

@HABS93 @Float,
I can't vouch for this, it's just an opinion based on the damage that any neuro-scrambling drug can do, and that includes anti-d's, anti-anxiety drugs, gabapentin (Neurontin), hypnotics, MDMA, you know, the whole spectrum, but I'd say it's not impossible. A fragile equilibrium and neuro up-regulation might have been attained when the brain was younger and less stressed by life and other illnesses, but if other shite hits the fan, that equilibrium might be broken, and all bets are off.

MDMA, like anti-d's, anti-anxiety, and the other array of deadly crap that Drs hand out, screws with your brain in ways that medical science not only doesn't fully understand, but doesn't even seem to try to. If someone is having side effects that mimic MDMA withdrawal, it wouldn’t hurt to assume that as fact, and treat those effects along with whatever else is happening, ME-wise. Maybe try what worked for me, but remember that we’re all different as is each individual’s expression of this uber-vexing kaleidoscopic illness and all its little hitch-hikers, so maybe do a little google and some experimenting, or both.

I treated the massive anxiety that hit me a ways into the ME/CFS with everything I could throw at it, because I was on the verge of giving up in the worst possible way, the panic attacks were so bad and so long (19 hours at a time, or shrter wave-upon-wave attacks day after day after day after ...well, you know). After a year of that, I would have chewed off my right arm to stop them.

What worked for me after a lot of trial and error was the afore-mentioned magnesium glycinate, 50 mgs every 30 - 60 min's, sometimes as much as 1200 mgs a day, 0.25 mcg doses of melatonin on a nothing-else-is-working, as-needed basis, Vit C doses several times a day, cutting out all sources of additional neurotoxins like free-glutamic acid / glutamate (there's literally close to 90 different names for these substances, but anything hydrolyzed or called an 'extract' or 'concentrate' is suspicious), and their more honestly named sibling, MSG.

I was suddenly reactive to almost every food and supplement known, so diet was very restricted. I also cut out calcium, because somewhere in the Krebs cycle, I think, it super-charges the neurotoxic effects of glutamate on the NMDA receptors and huuuugely magnifies negative effects of anything neurotoxic. I survived on a good multi (Vital Nutrients, without copper, iron, or boron) and gave up on the tiny fragment of what little was left of what we’ll call my social life, like brief phone chats with friends, because the ME fatigue forced me to use what little energy I had very cautiously. And even a brief chat would drain me to bottoms of my feet for days on end.

@HABS93

..... yeah, the blurry eyes, like super-slow tracking? Those could definitely be part of the neuro-effects of extended use of any brain-altering drug. Also bad brain fog, fatigue, confusion, insomnia, bad tachy palpitations, unresponsive marionette jerky muscles in legs and arms, just a whole cornucopia of crap. I'm super awed that you can manage a job at all. I wish I had a definite fix or palliative for you, I know it’s hell. I can only share what worked for me under somewhat different circumstances, but ones that produced very similar effects to what you're going thru.

I'm not sure about Mag L-Threonate. Threonic acid is a sugar acid derived from threose, and its L-isomer is a metabolite of ascorbic acid. I know it's touted as crossing the BBB, and therefore being superior to other forms of mag, but there are conflicting studies, some of which dismiss threonate as a clever marketing ploy. Magnesium L-threonate was discovered and patented by MIT researchers, based on its purported and unique ability to cross the BBB and boost brain levels of magnesium, but altho studies attesting to this are mentioned on various sites touting its unique value, no direct citations or links are usually provided and they’re hard to find. I have some in file, but am too tired today to dig thru and find them among the 1000’s of research papers I’ve saved during the course of all this.

The bottom line is if it works for you, that's all that matters. It's comparatively expensive, so if it doesn't seem to be doing the job, you might consider trying Solgar's Chelated Magnesium (bound to the amino acid glycine, an amino that provides a mild calming effect, and for some reason didn’t trigger a free-amino effect on my neuro system), which is a neatly rounded rectangular 100 mg tablet, easy to clip in half for 50 mg doses.

I found that taking several larger doses of mag gly during the day didn't do much of anything for me, which is when I started experimenting with the 50 mg mini-doses at close intervals, and that started to turn things around in a meaningful way. It took several weeks before the improvements were definite, and the longer I stuck to it, the better it got.

Because magnesium is metabolized in a very small area of one or the other of your kidneys, it’s important to drink plenty of water. My goal is 3 liters a day, which I rarely make, but never less than 2.

Later, I added a potassium gluconate potion with a small amount of sea salt and cinnamon that I take first thing in the AM.

All in all, I’m so much better, anxiety-wise, than I was about 14 or 15 months ago, but I still have bad days, they're just more the exception and not the rule as they were previously They usually occur when for whatever reason I’ve forgotten to keep my magnesium intake up, altho I can get by on a lot less than before. And sometimes they just happen because. Gotta love ME.

I so hope this helps bring you some relief and help. If I can think of anything else, I’ll come back and post it, and if you have questions, tag me.

@YippeeKi YOW !! Extremely thankful for your feedback . I'm going to try the mag gly the way you did them. Threonate made me very drowsy the next day so I was skeptical of it doing anything anyways. Also the potassium glu did you take right when you got up ? Even before a meal ? I love working . I don't know if I'll ever recover but I've always loved work. And now it's my only way to have a social life. If you can call that one.

Also forgot to mention that if I eat pizza or like anything bad like that my eyes get worse the next day. Like sketchier. Same if I only have a couple of beers. I assume this is because it just makes the nuero effects enhanced ?

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

@HABS93

Extremely thankful for your feedback

You're so very, truly welcome. I was so glad that I could offer smething from my own moserable experience tht might help, and I profoundly hope that it does.

Also the potassium glu did you take right when you got up ? Even before a meal

Yes. Totally empty stomach.

I use BulkSupplement's Potassium Gluconate powder, and whisk up about 800-950 mgs in warm water with 4 or
5 drops of stevia for flavor enhancement, and 1/4 teaspoon of Ceylon Cinnamon, which some arcane research studies found had a calming effect on excitotoxicity, along with a scant 1/8th teaspoon of sea salt.

The liquid suspension avoids the problem of having the potassium settle en masse into a particular spot in my stomach lining and burning the frack out of it. The electrolytes perk up my system and get the day off to a decent start. How long that lasts is another issue.

Also forgot to mention that if I eat pizza or like anything bad like that my eyes get worse the next day.

I assume this is because it just makes the nuero effects enhanced ?

This is sounding more and more like excitotoxicity and a really bad GABA/GLUTAMATE imbalance, with GLUTAMATE the big bad wolf, sending GABA cowering. Unfortunately, when neurons are over-excited for protracted periods, they seriously down-regulate, misfire, and get confused, so everything that normally is either split between GABA and GLUTMATE receptors, or goes directly to replenish GABA during stress or anxiety, goes instead entirely to GLUTAMATE, which is the neuro transmitter that creates really imbalanced responses like the ones you're experiencing, and sends your neuro system into frenzied retreat, crashing and burning in very unpleasant ways.

Sadly, pizza, burgers, all fast foods in fact and even most higher-tier restaurants, use a shite-load of MSG (monosodium glutamate, which is glutamate in its purest most rapidly absorbed form) disguised under a number of different names (over 50 at last count), with the newest addition being Umami. It makes everything taste intensely, insanely, better, and sellers of food as meals need you to keep coming back, hence flavor/taste enhancers.

I love pizza and had to regretfully give it up. I had a small family-owned neighborhood pizzeria near me who did a drop dead with joy olive and garlic pizza that was my go-to when I needed a lift or a quick bite. It took me the longest time to connect the dots. I felt betrayed. 'Family owned', bite me, 'hand made' my @ss.

Then I realized that all that really was true. But they had no control over the additives in the cheeses they used, or the olives, or the 'natural seasonings'.

So be wary, and learn to read labels really closely. Anything called 'natural flavors' is guaranteed to be heavy with glutamate. ANd since they can call vanilla extract made from beaver anus glands and still call it 'natural' .... well, there you go. Look for "organic vanilla extract" instead. "Natural' has no real definition or legislative protection. 'Organic' does, so manufacturers don't screw around with that, and don't use that designation casually.

Hope this helps.

Definitely give mag glycinate a shot, and see if using the micro-dosing (50 mgs every 30-60 mins, depending on your state at the time) doesn't help more than the bulk dosing of 100 mgs or more, 2 or 3 times a day. It's what made the diffference for me.

You might find a combo of the threonate and glycinate workable, with the threonate coupled with glycinate closer to bedtime for maximized sleep.

Onward and upward, eh !!!

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

@Float
I hope this helps. Going thru that is just absolute, purified, concentrated hell, and the cognitive effects are ridiculous. I send you hugs and

 

[Judee]

I used to go to an environmental doctor and I just remembered that he gave us sublingual drops that he called neurotransmitters for MCS (Multiple Chemical Sensitivities). They helped my mom but not me.

I also remember that he had a brochure in his office about a urinary test used for testing a person's neurotransmitters but when I researched the testing online there were a lot of reports saying it probably would not be an accurate way to measure neurotransmitters. ???

Thought I'd mention this though to see if it would be any help. I was going to post a link to the American Academy of Environmental Medicine in case you wanted to look for a doctor in your area but I'm getting a certificate error message.

On that note, I was going to ask though if you have thought of looking for an ME/CFS doctor in your area. Your doctor doesn't sound like he is going to be much help with his "it's all in your head" attitude.

if I eat pizza or like anything bad like that my eyes get worse the next day. Like sketchier. Same if I only have a couple of beers. I assume this is because it just makes the nuero effects enhanced ?

One other thought--gluten affects my eyes if I eat it. I hate pushing any kind of elimination diet because that's what I've lived for 30 years and it is very difficult to do and very difficult to maintain but you could possibly trial removing gluten for a week and then trying it again to see if your eyes get affected by it. It's in wheat, rye, and barley and can be in foods not labeled gluten free. Also even foods that are labeled gluten free can have it in it like Cheerios--they've had to recall some batches so I stick with things like Bob's Red Mill brand.

It's just a thought. Foods can affect us in different ways if we develop sensitivities to them. Gluten doesn't affect my gut like most sensitive people; just my eyes.