Mood swings, emotional, irritable, treatments? (male - females welcome to answer though)

[MrMuffin]

Recently I've been feeling really emotional.

Sometimes I get it after working out, sometimes after sex, and sometimes just.. out of the blue, and it can last for hours. Almost to the point of crying.

Then of course there's irritability and feeling annoyed.

It's being emotional almost to the point of crying.

What helps? Not sure. Tramadol seems to help to a degree (found this out accidentally). It works on the opioid receptors but increases serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine as well.

So one theory is, might this be a beta endaorphin deficiency. This has been noted in some studies of CFS. In which case I might attempt fixing with cold showers or LDN.

Another possibility is increased prolactin but I haven't been able to measure that elevated.

A third might be a thyroid problem. Perhaps subclinical hypothyroidism. This has been connected to depression in the literature. Other symptoms that fit are brain fog and little tolerance to cold.

 

[bensmith]

Could it be pem? Happens to me too. For me its my pem. Emotional instability was first symptom. And brain swelling.

maybe dont work out and see if it smooths.

 

[ljimbo423]

Recently I've been feeling really emotional.

This happens to me quite often too. It's often worse after I do a lot of physical activity. I think it's caused by toxins from the gut, mainly lipopolysaccharides (LPS) getting into the bloodstream. Causing mitochondrial dysfunction and the low grade brain inflammation that a few ME/CFS studies have found now.

These are quotes below, from a study that found increased levels of LPS in the bloodstream of ME/CFS patients, after an exercise challenge. LPS are part of the outer cell membrane of gram negative bacteria in the gut. These increased LPS levels were maintained at 72 hours (or 3 days) after the exercise challenge.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the worst PEM symptoms most of us experience are 1-3 days after we do too much physically. Which is the same time frame for the increased levels of "bacterial sequences", which includes LPS.

Additionally, systemic antibody responses to enteric microorganisms have been shown to occur in patients with ME/CFS, suggesting that increased intestinal permeability and bacterial translocation across the intestinal barrier may result in further inflammation and contribute to ME/CFS symptoms [9,23,24].

IgA antibody responses to enteric bacteria in ME/CFS patients have to date been associated with higher serum IL-1, TNFα, and neopterin levels, autoimmune responses to serotonin, and increased symptoms of irritable bowel syndrome [25,26].

There was also a significant difference in clearance of specific bacterial phyla from blood following exercise with high levels of bacterial sequences maintained at 72 hours post-exercise in ME/CFS patients versus clearance in the controls. These results provide evidence for a systemic effect of an altered gut microbiome in ME/CFS patients compared to controls.

These findings suggest a role for an altered gut microbiome and increased bacterial translocation following exercise in ME/CFS patients that may account for the profound post-exertional malaise experienced by ME/CFS patients.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4684203/

 

[xebex]

Yea I get this, it’s certainly part of the PEM, for me it used to feel like you describe low like you’re going to cry for no reason. But now for me mostly it has turned into rage attacks! great! @ljimbo423 s explanation certainly sounds like a plausible one to me. Do you have any idea what could help it?

 

[ljimbo423]

Do you have any idea what could help it?

What I've learned is a low carb diet is a must, along with herbs to kill off any bacterial overgrowth in the gut, that often causes leaky gut. Probiotics and prebiotics help some people too.

One thing that really showed me how important a low carb diet is, was when I went from 80 grams of carbs a day to 150-200 and became mostly bed bound within 2 weeks. After not spending any time in bed for several years, other to sleep.

The carbs fed the bad bacteria in my gut, which caused more LPS to get into my bloodstream. That caused a profound worsening of symptoms and me ending up spending most of my days in bed again. Until I went back a low carb diet.

 

[xebex]

@ljimbo423 thanks for that. Do you stick to 80g carbs a day now or it it lower than that? I was on 25g a day for 10months and got worse and worse. Felt better around the 80g a day mark. But my carb load has since gone up to probably standard levels maybe a bit lower. I am finding higher carbs and a more bean/plant based diet (70% plant based) seem to be reducing my histamine issues but not sure if it’s helping anything else.

 

[ljimbo423]

Do you stick to 80g carbs a day now or it it lower than that?

I'm doing 80-100 now.

I was on 25g a day for 10months and got worse and worse. Felt better around the 80g a day mark.

I also feel miserable when I go below about 80 grams a day.

Apologies @MrMuffin for side tracking your thread.

 

[MrMuffin]

Is exercise your only trigger? Never happens at random?

 

[PatJ]

PEM can cause emotional instability for me. I can also feel emotionally unstable at other times. Three things have helped: MethylB12, magnesium, and sometimes lithium orotate. All of them reduce glutamate so that might be why they help.

Low blood sugar, and low electrolytes might be contributors to how you're feeling, especially after working out.

 

[leokitten]

For me emotional lability can happen after a single intense or period of chronic mental or physical overexertion. It’s part of PEM and it’s strongest just before crashing and disappears after enough rest. For me at least, I don’t believe it has anything to do with gut microbiome etc because even enough strong mental overexertion alone can do it. It’s simply overexertion that is the cause and I don’t have lability when I’m resting and pacing.

 

[ljimbo423]

For me emotional lability can happen after a single intense or period of chronic mental or physical overexertion. It’s part of PEM and it’s strongest just before crashing and disappears after enough rest. For me at least, I don’t believe it has anything to do with gut microbiome etc because even enough strong mental overexertion alone can do it.

I'm thinking that if the microglia become sensitized as ME/CFS researcher Jarred Younger thinks. Then even small amounts of stress could trigger PEM in some of us by activating the microglia, causing an increase in brain inflammation, causing PEM and emotional sensitivity.

I'm thinking that the microglia become sensitized, in at least some of us, from increased intestinal permeability and bacterial translocation. Several studies have found high blood levels of LPS in ME/CFS. LPS from gut bacteria, are well known to cause microglia activation and neuroinflammation.

Studies show that stress can activate microglia. I think this might be what triggers PEM and emotional sensitivity in some of us.....

Stress-induced microglial activation occurs through β-adrenergic receptor: noradrenaline as a key neurotransmitter in microglial activation

Background

The involvement of microglia in neuroinflammatory responses has been extensively demonstrated. Recent animal studies have shown that exposure to either acute or chronic stress induces robust microglial activation in the brain. In the present study, we investigated the underlying mechanism of brain microglial activation by acute stress.

Reference

 

[xebex]

I do believe it has something to do with the gut biome because i get similar symptoms to the exertion induced emotional lability when i try to "fix" my gut, i've found that anything that specifically targets the gut, like probiotics or colostrum causes the same thing. I should add i have no GI symptoms, but it seems to me fairly obvious that something is going on with my gut that affects my brain - on top of a load of other things like spinal injury causing ANS dysfunction, plus possible hidden viruses etc tc.

 

[leokitten]

There’s a huge confounder here, 70% of your immune system is around your gut, so if ME is partly a chronic inflammatory and immune dysfunction disorder that has nothing to do with gut bacteria, then it may only feel like it does because the immune system is getting very sensitive around the gut.

 

[Levant]

The emotional instability could be due to amygdala malfunction, which itself is one of many proposed mechanisms driving me/cfs. As it's part of the limbic system, that would also explain why sex triggers the symptoms. Neuroinflammation would also be triggering the amygdala I guess, and LDN might lower this so perhaps not such a bad shout, also cold showers help regulate the autonomic nervous system I think, so that could help short-circuit the feedback loop between the amygdala and the rest of the body maybe? I dunno. Anyway, I think the m.e. is definitely messing with your limbic system so anything that could help regulate that should help I guess

 

[Levant]

Personally I would recommend breathing exercises, like pranayama or the Wim Hof method. Also meditation and mindfulness should help (like every other patronising bugger recommends ).

 

[Levant]

Ah, this is explains more scientifically than my clumsy attempt:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6291860/#section8-2058738418812342title

Neuroinflammation can explain the diverse symptoms of ME/CFS
A key positron emission tomography (PET)/MRI study by Nakatomi et al.6 implied that the physiological change that sustains ME/CFS could indeed be chronic neuroinflammation associated with the activation of the brain’s innate immune system. ME/CFS patients showed significant evidence of enhanced activation of glial cells within a number of specific regions of the brain. The severity of symptoms self-reported, such as fatigue, cognitive impairment, pain and depression, correlated with the intensity of their brain glial cell activation.6

A dysfunctional limbic system
Almost all of the specific areas of the brain highlighted as affected in this PET/MRI study, such as the amygdala, hippocampus, thalamus and cingulate cortex,6 are found to be within a region of the brain termed the limbic system. Sensitive emotions, mood swings, cognitive dysfunction, memory loss and increased anxiety all commonly experienced by ME/CFS sufferers5 might therefore be explained by inflammation (and dysfunction) of the limbic system.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Another discussion of emotional instability:
Can anyone relate to feeling bipolar-ish???
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/can-anyone-relate-to-feeling-bipolar-ish.51164/

Neuroinflammation would also be triggering the amygdala I guess, and LDN might lower this so perhaps not such a bad shout, also cold showers help regulate the autonomic nervous system I think, so that could help short-circuit the feedback loop between the amygdala and the rest of the body maybe?

You may be interested in this discussion:
Second study might confirm neuroinflammation in ME subcortical brain
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...roinflammation-in-me-subcortical-brain.80923/

 

[Levant]

Another discussion of emotional instability:
Can anyone relate to feeling bipolar-ish???
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/can-anyone-relate-to-feeling-bipolar-ish.51164/



You may be interested in this discussion:
Second study might confirm neuroinflammation in ME subcortical brain
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...roinflammation-in-me-subcortical-brain.80923/

Thanks! looks like I'm late to the party on this one

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Another discussion of emotional instability:

Just yesterday, I was having a bad PEM day, after not having one in a while, and something here in PR struck me as very funny (another member being witty in describing their lousy Xmas) and as the intensity of this funny feeling overtook me, it immediately shifted to crying. So I'm laughing and crying at the same time...and that is not uncommon around here.

Tears- are often barely held back in my case, but they aren't necessarily about sadness. Its just some really intense stuff. I don' t mind it, but then I'm a female and I've been surfing intensity for a long time now.

I actually do try to avoid falling into a sobbing despair, as it physically will really wipe me out PEM wise.