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MGH or Brigham & Women's Experience?

Mel9

Senior Member
Messages
995
Location
NSW Australia
I don't see Systrom, living across the country. But, I did see a dysautonomia specialist who ran the full suite of dysautonomia tests, a CPET, and I was positive for 2 of the CellTrend antibodies.

My ME/CFS specialist and the dysautonomia specialist put me on 90mg pyridostigmine and I'm currently on a beta blocker as well, and I wemt from veing unable to stand in a grocery line or stand and talk to people and unable to e excuse more than 2-3 minutes without colkapsing to being able to walk and stand without collapsing snd to do some aerobic activity. I want to know if things will work on me and not people with different genetic and environmental factors in some RCT.

I also support exercise with antioxidants, like glutathione and amino acids, like BCAAs, and NAD+, hydrocortisone, and T3/T4.



Very glad to hear Mestinon working so well for you.

Just be careful not to overdo it. I was going so well on Mestinon that I made two mistakes

1) I overdid the exercise and experienced a (temporary) extreme relapse

2) i thought, ‘one every three hours is good so one every two hours will be even better.’

NO, it wasn’t.

My Mestinon overdose caused facial twitches, and severe nausea and diarrhea until I realised and returned to the more sensible one tablet every three hours.
 

MEPatient345

Guest
Messages
479
Hi all, I understand why Systrom wants more data, to have a more complete clinical picture of you as a patient. But, it concerns me that he’s using ICPET even on severe patients, and that after a few months they would want to do another cpet. (I did a cpet myself in ithaca 5 years ago and have never recovered to my prior baseline.)

Is it possible to work with Systrom and not do any of the cpets, or is he not interested in continuing as your doctor without? It seems like mestinon and the other drugs could be trailed without cpet data and without the risk to patients — do any of you agree?

One other question — I have often wondered about some of the new biologic drugs being used for asthma to tackle allergic inflammation, high eosinophils etc. These drugs (xolair, nucala) would be familiar to Systrom. I wonder had he considered using them on cases of ME which have either high eosinophils, MCAS, or high IGE. Could any of you, his patients, ask him his thoughts on this class of drugs as opposed to mestinon and autonomic? Thanks in advance if you can.
 

MEPatient345

Guest
Messages
479
Hi mestinon tryers.. I just took 15mg earlier. Felt quite weak and woozy after 2 hours. Is this the kind of drug where it either works quickly or isn’t for you..? How many days trial do you think I should give it?
 

Mel9

Senior Member
Messages
995
Location
NSW Australia
Hi mestinon tryers.. I just took 15mg earlier. Felt quite weak and woozy after 2 hours. Is this the kind of drug where it either works quickly or isn’t for you..? How many days trial do you think I should give it?


In my case, the first dose gave me an immediate feeling of wellness.
 

minimus

Senior Member
Messages
140
Location
New York, NY
@Silencio - Sorry for not answering sooner. I hadn't logged into PR for a while.

You asked whether Systrom treats ME/CFS patients who are not willing to undergo the iCPET, I think the short answer is probably not.

The longer answer is that Systrom is not really a holistic ME/CFS specialist the way that Klimas, Peterson, Levine and Bateman are. He developed an interest in ME/CFS relatively recently. He is one of the pioneers in using the iCPET to understand the physiological causes of unexplained exercise intolerance. These can include ejection fraction-preserved heart failure, pulmonary hypertension, neuromuscular diseases (in rare cases), and what he calls preload failure/dysautonomia, which is what he commonly sees in the iCPET results of ME/CFS patients. His focus is on trying to increase exercise tolerance. His goal does not seem to be to treat the entire symptom complex of ME/CFS (e.g. cognitive dysfunction, unrefreshing/disturbed sleep, flu-like malaise, digestive problems, extreme allergies, headaches, noise/light sensitivity, etc.)

In my case, he recommended I undergo the iCPET at my initial consultation. He didn't offer to treat me experimentally with mestinon or other drugs that improve venous return. Of course, I could be wrong about this, but it seems that most of his patients who fit the profile of ME/CFS in terms of viral onset and current symptom profile end up doing the iCPET. He then follows up with a non-invasive CPET after about 6-8 months to see if the medication he prescribed has increased exercise tolerance, as measured by the objective parameters of the test.

If you don't want to undergo the iCPET or the follow-up CPET, then it seems like there must be easier and cheaper ways to skin this proverbial cat. You already trialed mestinon. The other drugs he uses, if mestinon does not work or causes too many negative side effects, are midodrine and florinef. Supposedly, he also considers using the drug northera, but that was never mentioned to me as an option. Maybe you can find a local doctor who is willing to prescribe these medications, though I realize that is easier said than done.

You also asked whether Systrom is using medications like Xolair in patients. Again, I am pretty sure the answer is no. His physician's assistant told me last fall that he tests patients for MCAS mostly out of an academic interest in it, but he doesn't really treat MCAS.

In any case, the approved indications for Xolair are uncontrolled allergic asthma and hives. No insurance company will pay for Xolair, which costs about $35,000 a year, unless the patient has one of these two conditions and other cheaper treatment options have failed. Obviously, MCAS is a new and still somewhat controversial diagnosis, in that not every MD believes it is a "real" clinical entity. My guess it that it will be at least another decade, if not longer, before insurers and Medicare authorize the use of Xolair or Dupixent, which might work even better than Xolair. to treat MCAS.

In patients who do not respond positively to mestinon or the other drugs used to treat dysautonomia (florinef, midodrine) after 6-8 months and who also have either clear signs of autoimmunity in their lab work or small fiber neuropathy confirmed by skin biopsy, Systrom has said he will consider the use of IVIG, Rituxan, or plasmapheresis. However, having spoken to his physician's assistants, I get the impression that the use of these treatments by Systrom hasn't really gotten off the ground yet. It is more in the "discussion stages" and is based on the recommendations and clinical experience of Anne Oaklander at Mass General and Peter Novak at Brigham & Women's, two neurologists who have treated small fiber neuropathy with IVIG.

My guess is that two problems stand in the way of Systrom using IVIG in his patients. The first is that small fiber neuropathy is not an approved indication for IVIG. If your insurance company won't pay for it, the out-of-pocket expense for the dose required would be astronomical. (Supposedly, Oaklander recommends using 2 grams of IVIG per kilogram of bodyweight every four weeks. That is about 5 times the dose used for immune deficiency.) My guess is that Systrom does not have the support staff to try to get insurers to approve IVIG for his patients. Another issue is that IVIG can cause pretty severe adverse events. The most notable is aseptic meningitis, which I believe requires hospitalization. Since a lot of his patients are travelling to see him, and are not local, he may be wary of prescribing IVIG if it could land his patients in the hospital.
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,851
Location
Brisbane, Australia
My guess is that two problems stand in the way of Systrom using IVIG in his patients. The first is that small fiber neuropathy is not an approved indication for IVIG.
IVIG would be appropriate if you happened to test positive to ganglionic acetylcholine receptor antibody
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671239/

The problem that arises with autoimmune neuropathy though is that some 50% of cases are actually seronegative to ganglionic acetylcholine receptor antibody
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2837591/
 

minimus

Senior Member
Messages
140
Location
New York, NY
Thanks, @kangaSue - I guess Systrom and maybe Oaklander believe that small fiber neuropathy in ME/CFS patients must be autoimmune in nature even in cases where they are seronegative for autoimmune antibodies.

I personally am somewhat wary of trying IVIG, particularly in the dosage that is required, since I responded badly to IVIG when I tried it for four months in 2016. Basically, I developed much worse cognitive dsyfunction and severe fatigue, and that was at one fifth the dose Oaklander recommends for small fiber neuropathy, which I have. I also am going to be losing good health insurance in the not-too-distant future, and I have been told it is unlikely that an ACA plan in New York would authorize high-dose IVIG.
 

minimus

Senior Member
Messages
140
Location
New York, NY
I had to cancel my follow-up CPET and office visit with David Systrom, which had been scheduled for last week. A family health emergency required me to massively overextend around the July 4th weekend and I have been in a severe and deepening crash since then. I am currently only able to take a few steps on my own before my leg muscles give out from severe fatigue and leadenness, so another CPET is no longer in the realm of possibility.

I did speak to Systrom's physician's assistant (PA) about a month ago, when I was doing somewhat better, and he gave me a sense of the pros and cons of seeing Systrom on an ongoing basis for treatment. The upside of returning to Systrom for follow-up is that he is willing to prescribe IVIG and in some cases Rituxan if oral medication is not helping, though only to patients whose initial blood work showed clear evidence of autoimmunity or whose skin biopsy is positive for small fiber neuropathy. (Though my blood work was normal, my skin biopsy was positive, with nerve fiber density below the 1st percentile.) According to his PA, Systrom believes that small fiber neuropathy in ME/CFS patients has an autoimmune etiology, even if blood work is normal.

However, there are also a range of impediments to seeing Systrom for ongoing care:
  • Systrom requires patients to undergo a second CPET at the follow-up appointment to see if IVIG or Rituxan is warranted. Also, the follow-up CPET data is useful in convincing health insurers to authorize IVIG or Rituxan. This seems to me to be a bit of a Catch-22: if an ME/CFS patient is deteriorating, he or she has to prove it by undergoing the CPET, which will make them even worse, possibly permanently.
  • Because of the nationwide shortage of IVIG, Systrom is somewhat hesitant to prescribe it to ME/CFS patients, apparently in the belief that it should be reserved for people with life threatening conditions.
  • Out-of-state patients who don't live near Boston are required to find a local physician who can coordinate the administration of IVIG and who will fight with health insurers to maintain authorization of IVIG. Systrom's PA says this requirement has been a stumbling block for some patients who travel long distances to see him and who don't respond to oral medications. (On the other hand, if you live close to Brigham & Women's Hospital, you can go there to have IVIG administered.)
At this point, I am at a loss about what to do next on the medical front, if anything. Susan Levine has been great -- she is very supportive and thoughtful, but her main area of expertise is ME/CFS. She is somewhat less familiar with how to treat a seemingly progressive small fiber neuropathy. She thinks IVIG is warranted in my case, but is much less familiar with how to get insurance to authorize it. (She said she primarily prescribes it for patients with immune deficiency, which involves different testing and comparatively low doses of IVIG.)

I am scheduled to see a local neurologist in late August who supposedly uses IVIG to treat some of her autonomic dysfunction patients who have small fiber neuropathy. However, in my experience, a lot of neurologists in New York deliver a lot less than promised.

For example, I had a consult with a neurologist who came highly recommended at Weill-Cornell back in January with my iCPET and skin biopsy results in hand, and his opinion was that small fiber neuropathy does not cause muscle fatigue, and that he suspected I instead had a neuromuscular disease. When my EMG and nerve conduction studies later came back completely normal, he essentially told me there is nothing he could do for me and that I should return to Systrom for further treatment.

If I have no other options, I might try to get in to see Jill Schofield in Denver, who seems to be familiar with dysautonomia caused by small fiber neuropathy, though she is very expensive and I have no idea how I can travel to Denver when I can barely walk the 20 feet to get from my bed to my bathroom.

If anyone has any helpful ideas, they would be appreciated.
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,851
Location
Brisbane, Australia
If anyone has any helpful ideas, they would be appreciated.
Small Fiber Neuropathy (SFN) can be Autonomic Neuropathy (AN) when SFN affects autonomic fibers. AN can be either idiopathic or autoimmune but the comprehensive battery of blood tests run on you by Systrom looks to rule out autoimmunity, unless of course you're a seronegative case.
I can’t find too many diseases that result in severe leg muscle fatigue and pain from walking and feeling like sh*t afterwards
May-Thurner Syndrome maybe, iliac vein stenosis. This often goes with Nutcracker Syndrome (left renal vein stenosis) and for reasons unknown, either one can also cause POTS and/or chronic fatigue.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
@minimus Can you see what your plan's policy is for IVIG approval, which can help you figure out what you need to qualify? Generally, there are several categories, including total IgG under 700 (or some other threshold), low IgG subclasses, and certain autoimmune diseases and cancers.

I was approved for immunodeficiency, but I have significant autoimmune problems, just not the "brand name" autoimmune diseases on my policy. So, my doctor submitted the approval request with a CVID diagnosis, dosed at .75g/kg every 3 weeks, then moved it to every 2 weeks to get it into me. A year into it, insurance balked, but the doc talked them into it. I haven't had any problems since.

There is an IVIG shortage, but I get it from the largest IVIG home infusion service and have hsd no problems. I did see somewhere recently that MGH was currently rationing it.
 

minimus

Senior Member
Messages
140
Location
New York, NY
Thanks, @Learner1 , I will call my insurance company to find out what they will authorize.

One complicating factor is that my insurance situation will be "in flux" next year. I currently have my former employer's health insurance plan, which is quite good, thanks to COBRA. When my COBRA coverage runs out in November 2020, my family and I will be switching to one of New York's Obamacare plans, which are supposedly very stingy. But I guess I will worry about that when the time comes.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
I was able to look up the policy online and read it for myself. If you talk to someone, have them show you the fine print.

When you switch policies, if you have a history of being on IVIG, you could argue for continuation of care.
 

RYO

Senior Member
Messages
350
Location
USA
I have been on mestinon for the last 5-6 months. I slowly titrated starting with 30 mg once daily. I currently take 180 mg three times daily. It has definitely helped my moderate-severe ME. I couldn’t travel to Boston but I was able to find a local physician to prescribe medication. I also take DHEA 25 mg intermittently (2-3 times per week). I have tried many treatments in the past but this combination seems to be helping for now.

A couple of months ago, I went beyond my limit and suffered significant PEM but it was less severe. Mestinon seems to help with vascular support but it does not address what I think is neuroinflammation. I have chronic muscle pain and twitching that is worse in my legs. Mestinon did not worsen or improve those symptoms. I experimented with some Chinese herbs that help with arthritis in the hopes of finding something that helps with PEM (flu like feeling) which I attribute to neuroinflammation.

My skin biopsy was negative for SFN. I suspect high dose IVIG suppresses inflammation. I just don’t think it will be a drug that most ME/CFS patients will be able to use long term. I am hoping that Dr Jared Younger’s research will help with finding an existing medication that can be repurposed that targets neuroinflammation. Perhaps the research regarding MAIT cells will be helpful. Also it is unclear what is causing tissue oxygen extraction issue. Is it a microvascular problem or an acquired mitochondrial defect?

It is not a cure but ME CFS patients need some cost effective treatment that can improve our quality of life while we wait for quality research results.
 
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