ME/CFS patient eliminates his fatigue by high-dose protein + high-dose zinc

[Hip]

An ME/CFS patient discovered that high doses of an easily-digestible protein such as whey protein 160 to 200 grams daily, in combination with zinc 25 to 100 mg daily, completely eliminated his "horrible paralysing dehumanising fatigue".

He did not obtain any benefits from taking these two supplements individually, but noticed major effects when taken in combination.

He wrote:

The improvement of my symptoms set in after one or two days after increasing protein on the first day and starting zinc on the second day. Now I’m getting both each day for the past 14 days and this is the result.

So it looks like the improvements manifest very fast, within a day or two.

His theory is that ME/CFS is a catabolic state, and in this state there is not enough albumin in the blood, which means zinc is not transported efficiently via the blood circulation (albumin is the main transport protein for zinc in the blood).

He thinks by consuming a lot of protein, you increase albumin levels, thus allowing zinc to be transported again.



My guess is the benefits he obtains from the protein + zinc protocol might be somewhat idiosyncratic, and may not work for most other ME/CFS patients (but that's true of all ME/CFS treatments). Nevertheless, if anyone has a supply of digestible protein and a zinc supplement at home, it might be worth trialing this combo.

Low blood albumin (hypoalbuminemia) is a recognised medical condition, often found in hospitalised individuals, critical illness, kidney disease, heart failure and sepsis.

Symptoms of low albumin include: fatigue, weak muscle tone, frequent urination, dark-coloured urine, loss of appetite, difficulty breathing, swelling in the feet and legs, jaundice.

 

[Cipher]

I've always had slightly elevated serum albumin for what it's worth. It doesn't seem like he actually tested his albumin levels from what I can tell?

Still an interesting anecdote, thanks for sharing!

 

[Hip]

It doesn't seem like he actually tested his albumin levels from what I can tell?

I don't think he tested his albumin levels, I think it was pure speculation on his part that his albumin might be low.

So his theory of why this high-dose protein + zinc protocol works might be wrong. The benefits he obtained from this combo might result from some completely different (and unidentified) mechanism.

For example, boosting protein intake theoretically might help ME/CFS, as Fluge and Mella discovered ME/CFS patients are short on ketogenic amino acids (like lysine and leucine) needed for aerobic energy production. See here.

 

[Consul]

I remember ron davis found lower albumin in patients than controls in his study on severely affected patients.

 

[Wishful]

I expect you'd find lots of abnormalities in severe PWME--or any other bedbound patients--vs healthy controls.

 

[mariovitali]

This is very interesting, Thanks @Hip . I heard before that some patients feel much better with Whey protein or much worse (this includes myself)

 

[Perfson]

I tried carnivore diet for 2 weeks approx, but didn't consider Zinc, in result didn't have any improvements.

I know this isn't about carnivore, it's just higher protein intake while keeping same, preferably healthy diet with enough carbs and fats, right?

Also it was mostly eggs and fried chicken in my case. Could this be too hard to digest proteins to make it work? Do I have to buy whey protein for that or I could make some dietary changes and buy easily digestible protein food?

 

[mariovitali]

I also just wanted to add : Given the latest study for WASF3 and Endoplasmic reticulum stress (ER Stress) , misfloded proteins are a cause of ER Stress. Denatured Proteins are actually proteins that are misfolded. I had my first significant crash when I ate 10 egg whites . Boiled egg whites are a classical example of denatured proteins. I specifically ordered undenatured whey -which I am currently expecting to arrive- in order to see whether I will crash by consuming it.

 

[Rebecca under the papyrus]

I also just wanted to add : Given the latest study for WASF3 and Endoplasmic reticulum stress (ER Stress) , misfloded proteins are a cause of ER Stress. Denatured Proteins are actually proteins that are misfolded. I had my first significant crash when I ate 10 egg whites . Boiled egg whites are a classical example of denatured proteins. I specifically ordered undenatured whey -which I am currently expecting to arrive- in order to see whether I will crash by consuming it.

I wouldn't worry about eating denatured protein, because whole proteins aren't absorbed anyway, they get broken down to peptides and amino acids first. And the stomach acid denatures any protein anyway.

 

[Violeta]

@mariovitali, keep us updated with your experience with the undenatured protein.

Thank you

 

[Hip]

Do I have to buy whey protein for that or I could make some dietary changes and buy easily digestible protein food?

My guess is that easily digestible protein food should work too.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

An ME/CFS patient discovered that high doses of an easily-digestible protein such as whey protein 160 to 200 grams daily, in combination with zinc 25 to 100 mg daily, completely eliminated his "horrible paralysing dehumanising fatigue".

I was reading THIS about absorption:


"Turns out that it takes 1.5 hours for viscous liquids (e.g. a whey protein shake) to pass through the section of the gut that can actually absorb it"

WARNING! Math ahead!​

Little Miss Muffet drank a 50 gram whey protein shake. Since Miss Muffet can absorb only 10 grams every hour. How long does it take for Miss Muffet to absorb all the protein?

50 grams / 10 grams per hour = 5 hours

So, it would take 5 hours to digest all that protein. But remember, we have only 1.5 hours to get ‘er done. Therefore Miss Muffet has no chance of absorbing all of it. She’ll absorb – at most – 15 grams. And the other 35 grams? Well, they’re wasted. Unless…

from this Internet web sight I cannot speak for:

https://www.precisionnutrition.com/rr-whey-too-much

 

[Wishful]

Well, they’re wasted. Unless…

Unless there's a poo party in the colon, and the microbes use the protein to make more microbes, which break down other foods, hopefully producing something useful and absorbable. Complex, isn't it? How do we know that something we eat, thinking "theory says it's good for us", results in metabolites that we don't want? For me, it comes down to "does eating that make me feel better or worse?" I don't care what one limited-perspective theory assumes will happen.

 

[Cipher]

Therefore Miss Muffet has no chance of absorbing all of it. She’ll absorb – at most – 15 grams. And the other 35 grams? Well, they’re wasted. Unless…

Seems like there are different opinions on this topic. Here's a quote from an examine.com article:

How Much Protein Can You Eat In One Sitting?​

... In short, the idea that eating more than 30 grams of protein results in wasted protein is incorrect. Your body will break down and use all the protein you eat, sooner or later, one way or another.

 

[datadragon]

Albumin is thought to be the major zinc transporter in plasma, and typically binds approx. 80% of all plasma zinc. Numerous studies have also demonstrated that albumin modulates zinc uptake into cells so its very helpful for zinc utilization. https://www.researchgate.net/public...g_site/link/56ebf96408aefd0fc1c71dc5/download

Zinc uptake in the gut is reduced and also the availability of zinc is further lowered during the normal response to inflammation and infection and NLRP3 over activation. The gut barrier becoming leaky and changes in the microbiome composition and function toward a more inflammatory state with increased propionate (propionic acid) and decreased butyrate (butyric acid) are part of those downstream effects from the lowered zinc, the protein encoded by the SHANK3 gene which regulates the gut barrier is regulated by zinc. Zinc is involved with Vitamin A metabolism to active forms which also leads to ceruloplasmin production that makes both copper and iron bioavailable (usable). A low zinc, Vitamin A and butyrate lead to ER stress, higher WASF3 levels and disruption of mitochondrial function. Zinc is also involved with conversion to active B6 and getting B6 into the cell as well, a cofactor for glutathione, and subsequently b12 metabolism needs glutathione. Zinc is also involved with the itaconate shunt which is also shown to inhibit b12 which would lower methylation. Some of the other pathways like PPARs require zinc, and PPARa and PPARy up regulates the expression of human MBL2. Human mannose-binding lectin (MBL) is encoded by the MBL2 gene and is a key player in innate immunity. https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...phalomyelitis-chronic-fatigue-syndrome.90582/ Consider also all the info of the lowered butyrate levels.

One interesting small addition in that paper related to this thread: The average occupancy of the zinc site on albumin is much lower, with only approx. 2% of circulating albumin molecules thought to carry a zinc ion. Also, the apparent binding constants for the first two equivalents of long-chain fatty acids are larger than that of zinc. Taking these considerations together, it seems unlikely that zinc binding would influence the amount of fatty acid transported under normal conditions. However, we hypothesize that the zinc-binding affinity of albumin might be reduced during conditions of increased free fatty acid mobilization, e.g. after strenuous exercise, when about four molecules of fatty acid may be bound to albumin.

 

[linusbert]

it seams wonderful but i believe this to be more important and true than one might think at first.
i am not sure about the albumin, but albumin isnt the only transport protein. there are in fact A LOT and not having enough protein to build the required transporters can be a reason for many weird things we experience like copper intolerance.

whey protein has wide ranging effects not only for transport proteins but also for methylation. Methionin will bring methyl groups.
Also for glutathione synthesis.
And of course being used as fuel itself.

though things to consider,
- higher ammonia can result from increased aminoacid metabolism
- glutamat can go higher

i am not sure about the albumin hypothesis. i actually think the zink just makes the protein more bio available, and that makes sense.
but not only zink is required for protein metabolism but also vitamins like B6 are essential for this.
and in the longer run also B12, Folate to reduce homocystein back to methionine.

maybe alpha keto glutarate can help to buffer the increased ammonia load.

the main zink transporter i believe is histidin , not albumin.