Low Sulfur Diet, protein intake

[Fuzzycolombo]

So I just got my 23andme results back and it came back with homozygous MTHFR c677t mutation as well as CBS c699t heterzygous mutation.

According to Dr. Yasko I should treat the CBS mutation first before dealing with the MTHFR. I'm going to doctor on Monday to have an UAA done so I can measure my taurine and ammonia levels, and I've ordered sulfate strips to measure sulfur levels.

In general Dr. Yasko recommends lowering protein levels because of the high sulfur content of legumes and flesh foods. However, I am looking into gaining muscle strength as I am recovering from ACL surgery and want to be competitive in soccer again. Here-in lies the issue, I can't deal with my mutations without compromising muscle strength and I can't have muscle strength without having sulfur symptoms.

Apparently the sulfur containing amino acids are l-methionine and l-cysteine (I am not well versed in chemistry so if I'm incorrect here please let me know). Would it be possible for me to create my own protein powder consisting of all the amino acids (if I ordered each one individually) and mix them all together minus the methionine and l-cysteine? Is this ill-advised? Will an increase in all amino acids while except for methionine and l-cysteine cause problems?

Perhaps the best approach is to go on a very low protein diet for now, accept that my muscle strength will falter, recover from CBS symptoms, and then slowly add one source of protein back into my diet and see if symptoms return/test results change.

 

[MastBCrazy]

I think pea and brown rice proteins are lower in sulphur. There is some sulphur present in both, but maybe?? strategic reduction may be enough? The test strips should help guide.
Sorry, too much brain fog to recall about protein cycling, importance and benefits.

 

[Valentijn]

According to Dr. Yasko I should treat the CBS mutation first before dealing with the MTHFR.

CBS C699T is both extremely common and has been proven incapable of causing the problems which Yasko attributes to it. She has drastically misinterpreted research which is not related to that SNP, and then mysteriously claimed it applies to it.

I wouldn't trust anything she says.

 

[Fuzzycolombo]

@Valentijn Here's a blog where a guy successfully treated his inflammation problems with a low sulfur diet, http://anti-itisdiet.blogspot.com/2011/11/low-sulphur-experiment-is-successful.html. He has a very methodical in his approach, and while he never had genetic testing done, it shows there is some merit of a low sulfur diet for some people.

"I wouldn't trust anything she says" is a pretty callous recommendation to make to someone who dedicated their whole life to methylation research. While she "may" be mistaken about CBS, to disregard a lot of her very accurate knowledge in terms of how the MTHFR gene and other genes work in the methylation cycle would be foolish especially since so many people have recovered following her recommendations.

Lastly, I can personally attest to my reactions to high sulfur foods. Shortly after a challenge meal involving peas, broccoli, rice, beans, and meat (all high sulfur foods) I broke out in a rash and hives. It's not about the gene but about the gene set, and perhaps a lot of the people with the common CBS mutations have other genes that can properly deal with the sulfur load (I don't know enough about genetics to describe an example), and perhaps I have a genotype that is extremely bad at handling it. Perhaps there is a certain sulfur "threshold" that once I surpass my body is incapable of handling the rest and it goes on to produce inflammation.

I don't see any harm in experimenting with this diet, especially since I am currently sick and it'd be better to have a plan of action that some people have had success with. I've followed high protein diets and they've always produced lethargy, brain fog, and skin problems. Why not reset my symptoms back to zero, slowly re-introduce protein, and see what happens? Nothing else has worked.

 

[Valentijn]

Here's a blog where a guy successfully treated his inflammation problems with a low sulfur diet

So? There's no relation to CBS.

"I wouldn't trust anything she says" is a pretty callous recommendation to make to someone who dedicated their whole life to methylation research.

She gets a lot of other things wrong too. And her "dedication" involves selling a lot of over-priced supplements, so doesn't exactly qualify as charity

Lastly, I can personally attest to my reactions to high sulfur foods.

It still has nothing to do with CBS. Most human beings have the CBS variants which Yasko claims are important, so it's to be expected that a lot of people who do well on a low-sulfur diet also have those variants. Most of them will have ten fingers as well, but that doesn't mean that the number of fingers is relevant.

It's not about the gene but about the gene set, and perhaps a lot of the people with the common CBS mutations have other genes that can properly deal with the sulfur load

These normal CBS SNPs have no impact upon sulfur tolerance. If other genes do, they are doing it without a contribution from CBS, and CBS is still irrelevant to these problems.

I don't see any harm in experimenting with this diet, especially since I am currently sick and it'd be better to have a plan of action that some people have had success with.

I agree, with a few caveats. First of all, a low-protein diet can cause its own problems, as can avoidance of B6. Additionally, Yasko's treatment regimens usually involve taking a bunch of (her brand of) expensive supplements for several months, which can both be a waste of money and a delay into getting real investigation and treatment into health problems.

I don't doubt that some people feel better if they change their diet. But to base such advice or treatments on scientifically established inconsequential CBS variants is simply incorrect, and I object to the flagrant abuse of science which Yasko has started and many others happily perpetuate.

 

[Fuzzycolombo]

Interesting. So why do you say the upregulation of CBS doesn't increase sulfate levels? Because from her science it says that the upregulation of CBS leads to a push of homocysteine down the transsulfuration pathway leading to excess ammonia and sulfate. So where is she wrong? Also Caledonia seems to have personally treated their CBS issue issue over the course of 6 months using Heartfixer's approach which is based on Dr. Yasko's science.

Now Dr. Yasko's RNA + supplementation is prohibitively expensive and I will instead be using much cheaper forms of supplementation to address this issue (Yucca and charcoal).

'm at a point where I need to map out all my personal mutations and then find the supplementation regimen that works best for me (first I need to get testing done to see where I stand). We all just want to feel better, and unfortunately us laypeople have to trust scientist and researchers to determine what the best course of action is to thrive.

 

[Valentijn]

So why do you say the upregulation of CBS doesn't increase sulfate levels?

Well, that's the thing - there's no appreciable upregulation of the CBS gene due to C699T or the other SNPs she lists. The only mutations capable of doing damage on the CBS gene are serious downregulations.

Because from her science it says that the upregulation of CBS leads to a push of homocysteine down the transsulfuration pathway leading to excess ammonia and sulfate. So where is she wrong?

I'm not sure what "science" you're referring to. If she's done any, it should presumably be accessible by other people?

But we do know that she's wrong in equating some very common and proven harmless (in peer-reviewed published research) CBS SNPs with what happens if you chop off half of the CBS gene in a lab yeast. That's where her 10-15x upregulation claims come from, and it's completely bizarre.

Also Caledonia seems to have personally treated their CBS issue issue over the course of 6 months using Heartfixer's approach which is based on Dr. Yasko's science.

To repeat, a large majority of humans, most of whom are healthy, have these SNPs. There is no connection between those SNPs and benefiting from any particular treatment.

@caledonia has been asked many times by different people to explain why she thinks the science is wrong about CBS when she suggests that it causes problems, but has never responded. But we continually see that many people have invested into various things being a cause and cure for their problems (not just in methylation), such as by paying a lot of money or giving bad advice a lot of people, and rarely are then able to admit they were suckered in by Yasko or anyone else.

 

[Fuzzycolombo]

Well, that's the thing - there's no appreciable upregulation of the CBS gene due to C699T or the other SNPs she lists. The only mutations capable of doing damage on the CBS gene are serious downregulations.

Do you mind showing me the studies/showing me where I can search for literature involving the methylation cycle? Hopefully it isn't so technical that it flies over my head as I'm just starting out (and have only taken college level chemistry), but I do want to look at the science behind this.

If there is no appreciable upregulation in the CBS gene, than how can we explain the high sulfate/ammonia levels in individuals? What other faulty mechanisms have been proposed for this? There's the theory and then there's the empirical data showing why the theory makes sense. If the theory is wrong, what other explanation is there? Also, if the empirical data shows that treatment of the theory leads to results, than what do you say there? Even if the theory is incorrect, does it matter if people are feeling better? Maybe we shouldn't spread the theory as truth, and instead claim that the mechanisms behind high sulfate and ammonia levels are not understood, but if a treatment plan works then I don't see a problem with promoting the treatment plan. In fact we don't know why some pharmaceuticals work yet the science community doesn't seem to mind prescribing them anyways.

 

[Valentijn]

Do you mind showing me the studies/showing me where I can search for literature involving the methylation cycle?

https://scholar.google.com/ should be able to find the relevant papers. You can search for specific SNPs or genes there. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/projects/SNP/ also has a lot of data about specific SNPs, and the gene view links to research if you hover over the little (usually cyan) colored box.

If there is no appreciable upregulation in the CBS gene, than how can we explain the high sulfate/ammonia levels in individuals? What other faulty mechanisms have been proposed for this?

Basically "anything else". There are other genes involved in processing sulfur, and acquired pathogens or other illnesses are likely capable of having an impact as well.

Also, if the empirical data shows that treatment of the theory leads to results, than what do you say there? Even if the theory is incorrect, does it matter if people are feeling better?

It's great if something makes people feel better. But it's still 100% wrong to say it's due to those SNPs. And it means that a lot of people are being told that they have a problem which they don't have, which could mean wasting a lot of time and money in attempting to treat it.

Maybe we shouldn't spread the theory as truth, and instead claim that the mechanisms behind high sulfate and ammonia levels are not understood, but if a treatment plan works then I don't see a problem with promoting the treatment plan.

Exactly. There's nothing wrong with saying "I don't know", and for now that's pretty much the only sensible answer. But it would make more sense to base the treatment plan on symptoms or blood/urine results. Saying that it's based on CBS SNPs is simply a lie, though one often made in ignorance with good intentions.

 

[caledonia]

Regardless of mutation, the CBS gene can become expressed in the presence of mercury.

There are three protocols for dealing with sulfur - Heartfixer, Ben Lynch and Andrew Cutler. They all include restricting sulfur or thiols and supplementing with molybdenum. Then each one has their own twists.

Before I knew too much about Cutler and mercury, I used the Heartfixer protocol (it took 3 months not 6). For most people it's supposed to be 1-2 months.

I also used Cutler's free thiol list of foods and supplements, which works just as well and is much easier because you don't have to restrict meat.

I'm currently doing the Cutler frequent dose chelation protocol - I found out I have mercury, lead and arsenic.

Mercury and lead inhibit methylation at methionine synthase, and mercury and arsenic inhibit the Kreb's energy cycle.

I have links to CBS protocols, the free thiol list, Cutler chelation protocol, etc. in my signature link.

 

[Valentijn]

Regardless of mutation, the CBS gene can become expressed in the presence of mercury.

Which still has nothing whatsoever to do with Yasko's CBS SNPs.

 

[Fuzzycolombo]

Caledonia, Is the best starting point getting a NutrEval test done to see where I am for certain biomarkers and metal levels? From my research I know I want to check for homocysteine, glutathione, ammonia, sulfur, and heavy metals. I just got sulfate strips in the mail, so Im about to go pick them up and see where I stand on my bodies sulfate levels. Is there any certain time of day when it will be most accurate such as in the morning versus mid day?

Secondly, How do thiols, sulfate levels in the body, and mercury levels in the body relate? If I have high sulfate levels in my body, is it because of the thiols releasing mercury into my body, which then upregulates CBS and drains homocysteine?

 

[Valentijn]

From my research I know I want to check for homocysteine, glutathione, ammonia, sulfur, and heavy metals.

Measuring homocysteine is a great way to see that CBS isn't causing problems by supposedly draining it all off. It's a cheap and routine test in the US at least, where it's often included in yearly physicals.

 

[TreePerson]

Is this nutreval test available in the uk? I really want a better idea of what my body is doing. Sarah Myhills books closed for patients.

 

[mariovitali]

@Fuzzycolombo

There is a definite problem with Sulfation in many people with CFS (my hypothesis).


Try adding Molybdenum to your regimen (no more than 100% RDA) and let us know how it goes for you. If you have 23andme Data that you could share with me, please let me know.