LIver question about fat intake - prickly skin, metallic taste etc, high fat diet a causal factor or this is just another symptom?

[MichaelM]

Hi all,

I'm wondering if anyone can help me clarify a little.

TLDR: is high fat/low sugar/carb bad for liver detox?

Also, can strange antioxidant reaction be linked to liver, or something else?


I am new here and investigating neuro/gastro angle (with strong chronic fatigue during major flare ups and constant moderate fatigue during "manageable" phases). My main approach atm is around d-lactate and SIBO but an MS diagnosis has not been far from the lips of the neurologists, although it never quite fit.

Without detailed history, I had a multi week episode recently triggered by a probiotics experiment and 2 things (among many others) returned in full force that I had either fasted away or controlled with strict diet for some time.

1 - prickly skin/burning/pins
2 - metallic taste, more in sinuses than in mouth. Sometimes goes with my head feels like it's in a fishbowl.


I have a range of other liver symptoms that come and go, including smelly urine, grey stool occasionally, at the peak of an episode I had tenderness of liver to the touch. LFTs were fine, the worst has passed now and I am in the lower bounds of manageable again.


One of my main dietary interventions is low carb/very low/no sugar. This is kind of a proxy for keto, but I'm less interested in keto than I am just getting enough calories with so little glucose. So my ketones are generally "trace" or "fair" according to my urine strips.

Anyways, I consume a lot of fat - upto 6 or so teaspoons of coconut oil and 3-6 ghee a day in my coffee. This can be more or less. I also eat a lot of nuts (macadamias/pine), use olive oil in cooking, eat 1-2 avocados. Most of these I tolerate in gastro terms most of the time, which is my primary focus.

But the prickly and the metallic symptoms (and the urine smell) are a bit more persistent at the moment, and I'm wondering if the diet is not helping. From what I understand keto can be good for the liver, and considering I'm on very low/no carb/sugar I assume I'm not really taxing my liver. I generally assume that the recommendations around fat and liver health are based on a diet that is high in wheat or similar and moderate to high in sugar as most "normal" diets are. I consume no fruit, except very limited currants or blueberries.

Ideally I would fast to clear up the gut issues to check what my baseline is, but I'm having some tests done soon and don't want to be "too well" for diagnosis.

I also have gilbert's syndrome if that helps to know.


As a side note perhaps for another thread - I also have a strong reaction to antioxidants/anti inflammatories sometimes. Like I get disoriented, my head feels full/like I'm in a fishbowl. It's very hard to describe but it's uncomfortable and wondered if it's to do with liver or not. I don't do loads of anti ox supps. Pine bark, ataxanthin, curcumin, berry extract blend, gamma e sometimes. Some others but much less regular. I try to use them when I need them, but I do use some every day. I also try not to stack them. I have yet to do any homework on causes for this as I always just thought "that's another symptom". Sometimes the reaction to these type of supps comes with a spasm or sudden bounce in the chest. I thought it was ectopic beats originally, but I have experienced it in the throat area as well as the central chest. Like, just as the anti ox dissolves it's last bit, boom, onset, and body jumps a little in some way.


thanks for reading

 

[gbells]

I think you need medical help figuring out this one. Symptoms point towards ruling out a possible neuropathy from metal poisoning like mercury.

https://www.medicinenet.com/metallic_taste_in_the_mouth/symptoms.htm

Hows your tuna/salmon intake?

 

[MichaelM]

I think you need medical help figuring out this one. Symptoms point towards ruling out a possible neuropathy from metal poisoning like mercury.

https://www.medicinenet.com/metallic_taste_in_the_mouth/symptoms.htm

Hows your tuna/salmon intake?

thanks for your reply. Mercury (and previously copper) were queries of mine. However this is much more linked to variations in gut/probiotic intake etc (metallic returned in force after experimenting with probiotic). I haven't investigated mercury but copper serum was fine.

I do have neurological issues and SIBO, d-lacate and other metabolite issues may be the toxic element. Metallic can be linked to that, afaik can be linked to just detox. So my question is mostly about fat intake affecting detox and stressing liver. Even if on low sugar low carb low toxin type diet.

"Metallic taste in the mouth can also arise due to a disorder of the nerves that control taste sensations"

From the link this is also likely given my other neuro symptoms (I have lesions etc). D-lactate can be giving me nervous issues, and also a toxic strain. Just not sure if it's one or the other or both. I just didn't want to write up my whole personal history.

More specifically wondering about high fat effects on liver and affecting detox of the other toxins that are very high probability in my case. D-lacate seems to be a systemic issue so nerves and organs all affected.

I eat wild salmon 1 - 3 or 4 times a week. Tuna once every 2 weeks or so.

thanks

 

[gbells]

That's too much large fish. The FDA recommendation is to only have one serving per week to limit exposure. This includes tuna, salmon and King Mackeral. So you are over on your mercury. It needs detoxing.

 

[MichaelM]

That's too much large fish. The FDA recommendation is to only have one serving per week to limit exposure. This includes tuna, salmon and King Mackeral. So you are over on your mercury. It needs detoxing.

thanks, yes I also eat mackerel too at least once a week. The smaller one.

I try to live off fish mostly, what else should I eat now?

Oh god, another rabbit hole


still though, my original question remains. Today I haven't eaten any fish, and I only had 1 serving of salmon this week about 3 days ago, but the metallic taste fluctates still as well as the prickly skin.


Thanks anyways, I had thought all the fish I eat was a good thing and that tuna and mackerel I should moderate, not salmon. I thought farmed salmon was the bad guy

 

[gbells]

>I try to live off fish mostly, what else should I eat now?

Good protein sources are: garbanzo bean hummous, lima beans, chicken, small fish (sardines, small mackeral). You need to avoid mercury and detox it with a good treatment.

Here is Dr. Mercola's detox recommendation.

https://www.mercola.com/article/mercury/detox_protocol.htm

 

[MichaelM]

>I try to live off fish mostly, what else should I eat now?

Good protein sources are: garbanzo bean hummous, lima beans, chicken, small fish (sardines, small mackeral). You need to avoid mercury and detox it with a good treatment.

Here is Dr. Mercola's detox recommendation.

https://www.mercola.com/article/mercury/detox_protocol.htm

Thanks, yeah I'm on a pretty strict diet to deal with gut issues/d-lactate. So my go to has been fats, leaves and fish. I'll do meat twice a week and chicken or similar maybe once. So that could be upto 11 meals of fish on the worst weeks. More likely between 5-8.

Beans and many others are off the menu.

I can live off avocados though and some gelatin powder



Because my symptoms are neurological and my detox systems are already under strain, this is a very valid point you have raised as an additional factor to take care of.

Some weeks I will eat fish twice a day 5 days a week. Wild salmon, mackerel, sardines and prawns are my main sources. But I can easily eat 220g of salmon twice in a day sometimes just to get enough energy for the day, but not often.

I really hadn't thought of the mercury question seriously until now.

thanks.


Because I get neuro symptoms in general, it's hard to unpick this. What is causing what? I guess I need to do a week with no fish and see?

 

[ljimbo423]

TLDR: is high fat/low sugar/carb bad for liver detox?

Not in my experience, as long as you are eating healthy fats and it looks like you are. There have been many studies that show people with CFS have VERY high oxidative stress levels.

Which would put a huge burden on the liver to detoxify the toxins from the oxidative stress. My view is the main source of the oxidative stress is toxins from the gut and that's where my primary focus of treating my CFS is.

I take high doses of alpha lipoic acid, n-acetyl-cysteine, coq10, milk thistle, selenium and other powerful antioxidants to help with this, daily.

For myself, the solution is treating my gut, to stop the source of the toxins, that cause the oxidative stress and impair the livers ability to detox the body properly.

EDIT- I take 2 tablespoons of extra virgin olive oil with all 3 meals every day, to help make up for the calories I don't get from a low carb diet. So that's an extra 720 very healthy calories a day.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

metallic taste, more in sinuses than in mouth. Sometimes goes with my head feels like it's in a fishbowl.

I get a metalic taste when I start losing weight and burning thru stored fat...or via presumably some detoxing.

If I take proteolytic enzymes, I notice it soon thereafter (like Serrapeptase). Presumably, this is the body release some stored metals.

So in my case, I mostly avoid taking the enzymes...when instead I really should somehow push thru the detox....

Trying some kelp right now...

 

[MichaelM]

Not in my experience, as long as you are eating healthy fats and it looks like you are. There have been many studies that show people with CFS have VERY high oxidative stress levels.

Which would put a huge burden on the liver to detoxify the toxins from the oxidative stress. My view is the main source of the oxidative stress is toxins from the gut and that's where my primary focus of treating my CFS is.

I take high doses of alpha lipoic acid, n-acetyl-cysteine, coq10, milk thistle, selenium and other powerful antioxidants to help with this, daily.

For myself, the solution is treating my gut, to stop the source of the toxins, that cause the oxidative stress and impair the livers ability to detox the body properly.

EDIT- I take 2 tablespoons of extra virgin olive oil with all 3 meals every day, to help make up for the calories I don't get from a low carb diet. So that's an extra 720 very healthy calories a day.

thanks, very helpful and confirms my general understandings.

Yeah I get the above mentioned co-oil and ghee daily (although I cycle ghee as I don't want too many cow hormones ), then liberal use of olive oil including the occasional tablespoons as you do, and some rapeseed oil

100% I find that antioxidants are a major relief. When I first tried Ester-C and Gamma-E in the same day, wow, pure clarity. Now I find they are both too strong to use everyday.

I'm cautious with both ALA and NAC due to gastro effects, but may return to them as my gut is messed up anyways, even on what seems a perfect diet. Always liked ALA (I use liposomal glutathione when I can afford it).

thanks for your regimen. Mine has been more about extracts etc and less about the primary nutrients/antioxidants. I do have all of the items on your list on my shelf, I just don't use them everyday considering I use many other anxioxidants already. Try not to overdo supps.

Have noticed lately benfotiamine is helping too. Can recommend activated charcoal at times when you need a pure mop up to pass through the gut. e.g. worked well for me recently when I was stuck with "rocks" of cabbage/kale in my gut, fermenting painfully away.

 

[MichaelM]

I get a metalic taste when I start losing weight and burning thru stored fat...or via presumably some detoxing.

If I take proteolytic enzymes, I notice it soon thereafter (like Serrapeptase). Presumably, this is the body release some stored metals.

So in my case, I mostly avoid taking the enzymes...when instead I really should somehow push thru the detox....

Trying some kelp right now...

Interestingly I don't get it when I fast but did wonder if it can have something to do with fats. I really feel it's something to do with the fermentation causing some kind of issue that requires detox (d-lactate is the main angle for now for me). But also just nervous disorder from my cursory reading (again d-lactate causing nervous issues is a thing). I have neuro symptoms in abundance anyways.

the mercury angle already mentioned is interesting and worth my time to look at long term. However today for example - I have only had nuts and leaves and avos and fats. Yesterday I had 1 tiny serving of lemon sole and nuts/leaves/avos/fats. But today the metallic taste and the prickly skin both built up through the day. Wonder if I was fermenting the fibres from the maca nuts I over-ate earlier perhaps.



What is the kelp for? I think I have some stored away

 

[ljimbo423]

thanks for your regimen. Mine has been more about extracts etc and less about the primary nutrients/antioxidants.

I also take a lot of extracts and herbs. I take the equivalent of 14-15 grams a day for my gut, as well others like reveratrol, curcumin etc. for general inflammation and low grade brain inflammation, as ME/CFS researcher Jarrod Younger has found.

Can recommend activated charcoal at times when you need a pure mop up to pass through the gut. e.g. worked well for me recently when I was stuck with "rocks" of cabbage/kale in my gut, fermenting painfully away.

I take 2.6 grams charcoal a day to help mop up toxins in my gut and it helps tremendously.

 

[MichaelM]

I also take a lot of extracts and herbs. I take the equivalent of 14-15 grams a day for my gut, as well others like reveratrol, curcumin etc. for general inflammation and low grade brain inflammation, as ME/CFS researcher Jarrod Younger has found.




I take 2.6 grams charcoal a day to help mop up toxins in my gut and it helps tremendously.

nice, would you be able to post your regimen perhaps? or PM?

I can imagine it's extensive so no pressure/rush

 

[gbells]

>Because I get neuro symptoms in general, it's hard to unpick this. What is causing what? I guess I need to do a week with no fish and see?

Neurological problems take a long time to heal (up to 2 years). The best thing to do would be to go to your PCP MD and have him do a hair test to see what your load is. Also you have to be careful to detox carefully because it will release mercury into your system which will re-injure the nerves. Chlorella is supposed to buffer that problem which is why Mercola recommended it. I would also recommend high dose B12 like Breatheb12.com to help the nerves heal. If the chlorella and B12 help then that's likely the culprit. If you have leaky gut you're right to avoid plant lectins however if you use an instapot pressure cooker you can inactivate the plant lectins from beans and vegetables (green beans) so they aren't a problem. That leaves avoidance of fruit lectins. See the "Plant Paradox" book by Gundry.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

What is the kelp for? I think I have some stored away

Generally, the sea weeds are considered to help with detox.

Just read one can take baths...with sea weed.....Algae also...like spirulina.

 

[gbells]

Generally, the sea weeds are considered to help with detox.

Just read one can take baths...with sea weed.....Algae also...like spirulina.

You have to eat the chlorella.

 

[MichaelM]

Generally, the sea weeds are considered to help with detox.

Just read one can take baths...with sea weed.....Algae also...like spirulina.

LOL nice! I have a big bag of kelp I think, but it was gritty and powdered so I never quite got into eating it. Maybe it's bath time.

@gbells thanks. I have plant paradox. I think that the carbs/starches/fibres in plants are of primary concern for my case but lectins certainly too. The paradox for me has been that I might have been diagnosed with MS but that AIP diet and Gundry's diet did not quite do the trick. Now I understand the role of d-lactate, things became way clearer.

I look forward to a true detox and nerve regen one day.

 

[gbells]

Gundry overprescribes the lectin free diet because healthy people have evolved a defense against lectins. It really only has application for leaky gut, active bacterial infections and perhaps people who genetically lack the mucous defense.

 

[MichaelM]

Gundry overprescribes the lectin free diet because healthy people have evolved a defense against lectins. It really only has application for leaky gut, active bacterial infections and perhaps people who genetically lack the mucous defense.

yeah I had my reservations about the book on a few angles. I think the auto immune paleo is more comprehensive, but they are essentially the same and I'm sure if someone was his patient he would just adjust to their tolerances along with his "sophisticated bloodwork" ... still very easy to read coverage of an important topic.

for me it's about simple sugars, other sugars and other fermentable fibres etc. There isn't really anything I've found that totally clears symptoms via diet and avoiding lectins was a bit of a wild goose chase. I don't react to tomatoes or much else that I re-introduce unless they ferment a lot. Chilli and beans ones I did react to. Gut issues are the main problem here so it's good to have all that framework anyways for reference.


So this eve I've done half a Jarrow's ALA with biotin, coq10 with b1 added, 12mg ataxanthin, 1/2 teaspoon kelp. Now I've added a small dose of Rick Simpson Oil for the wind down. Let's see if this all helps with detox or if my RSO indulgence gets in the way.

I felt the ALA pretty much in 20mins. I did forget though that dose and body/gut dependent, that ALA can increase my neuropathy. I've woken up with numb hands after taking a full Jarrow. It is time release if that's important. Just another of my quirky reactions to anti oxidants that come and go. Wish I understood them more.

cheers all