Lithium

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There's some very preliminary but intriguing research looking at lithium Aspartate as a potential therapy for the fatigue and brain fog of ME/CFS. The theory behind it is that Lithium can reduce inflammation in the brain.
When lithium is prescribed for bipolar disorder the minimum dose is around 900 mg of lithium Carbonate, and it can cause serious side effects. However, this paper is talking about doses of 45 mg or less of Lithium aspartate. The research is being done at the University of Buffalo medical school.

FYI: Lithium aspartate (C4H6LiNO4) Lithium carbonate (Li2CO3)

Here's the link.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2824334
 

pattismith

Senior Member
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Last year, I had a very short maniac episode induced by medications, with sudenly more energy than ever before.
This moved my diagnostic to a bipolar depression.
unfortunately I cannot tolerate the drug my doc prescibes.
I had already some interesting positive reaction with Rapamicin on one side and low dose lithium on the other side, so I had the idea to look for informations regarding associations of these two drugs. It happens that they both modulate mTor.
I just started low dose of both drugs yesterday and really feel much better.

Here a 2008 interesting article about it :


A rational mechanism for combination treatment of Huntington's disease using lithium and rapamycin





1748796715757.jpeg

https://doi.org/10.1093/hmg/ddm294
 

Wayne

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I've mentioned lithium in a fairly large number of my posts. So I asked ChatGPT to review them and give a summary of some of my main points. AI saved me so much time and energy doing this for me.

About Wayne’s Story on Lithium
  • Key Points:
    • Wayne’s friend has complex health issues including mold sensitivity, MCS/EI, and blood-brain barrier dysfunction.
    • Prescription lithium (around 50 mg) caused a strong negative reaction.
    • A tiny dose of lithium (about 1% of the prescription dose, likely lithium orotate or a low-dose supplement) was well tolerated and produced significant health improvements.
    • This suggests microdosing lithium might stimulate immune or neurological systems gently, providing benefits without the harsh side effects seen at higher pharmaceutical doses.
  • Implications:
    • The story aligns with some clinical and experimental data suggesting that low-dose lithium orotate (often 1-5 mg elemental lithium) can have neuroprotective and mood-stabilizing effects without the toxicity risks of higher doses.
    • It reinforces the idea that dose matters a lot with lithium, especially for sensitive individuals or those with complex chronic illnesses.
    • It also highlights the potential role of lithium beyond just psychiatric uses—possibly modulating immune function or blood-brain barrier health.

Are Wayne’s Assertions Accurate?
Wayne made several points:
  1. Lithium “mops up” excess glutamate — This aligns with scientific literature suggesting lithium modulates glutamate neurotransmission and reduces excitotoxicity.
  2. Lithium has neuroprotective effects and can increase gray matter — Supported by MRI studies in bipolar disorder patients showing increased gray matter volume after lithium treatment.
  3. Lithium helps detoxify the brain — While less directly established, lithium has effects on inflammatory pathways and cellular resilience, which might be interpreted as “detoxifying” or protecting neural tissue.
  4. Microdosing is important — This is a reasonable assertion, especially for vulnerable patients; lower doses reduce side effects and may still confer benefits.

Summary
Wayne’s story and assertions are largely consistent with existing research and clinical observations, especially regarding lithium orotate’s potential at low doses for mood and neurological health, and the importance of careful dosing.
 

almost

Senior Member
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209
Lithium appears to modulate in both directions:
Hokin speculates a compensatory mechanism in the reuptake system strives over time to reset raised glutamate levels down into a fixed range. When the levels are too low, as postulated in depression, lithium brings them up into the stable region.
https://news.wisc.edu/research-explains-lithiums-dual-anti-manic-anti-depressive-effect/

I can definitely see it helping if it reduces or modulates glutamate in our brains. I know that I for one have loads of excess glutamate. Strategies to reduce do help.
 

almost

Senior Member
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209
I read through the study, and while certainly interesting, do have some questions about it.

First. this is part of the selection criteria:
Patients were eligible for enrollment if they reported having a positive test for COVID-19 with subsequent new and bothersome fatigue and/or cognitive dysfunction symptoms for more than 4 weeks after recovering from the acute infection
Reading further, I don't get the sense that this is directed toward MECFS patients, as the selection criteria did not use the ICC, CCC or any other MECFS screen that I could find. "bothersome fatigue and/or cognitive dysfunction" is quite broad, and while bothersome if you have it, could perpetuate the "you're just tired" myth that plagues our complaints.

Second, while 52 patients (1/2 were control) participated in the initial phase of the study, only 5 participated in the dose-finding phase. This is such as small sample size that I doubt it is really useful. They did acknowledge this:
However, only 5 patients from the double-blind trial participated in the dose-finding study, 4 of whom qualified for higher lithium dosage therapy. With such a small, open-label study subject to selection bias, it is difficult to draw any reliable conclusions regarding the merits of future neurologic PCC lithium trials.
Also, the Limitations section is accurate, and on point. Thumbs up to the authors for including it.

Lastly, the choice of lithium aspartate is interesting. Aspartate is a neuroexcitatory compound, much like glutamate. I don't think adding this to someone with gluatmate overload is a good idea. I avoid it when I can. The author's reasoning is:
Lithium aspartate was chosen over lithium carbonate and lithium orotate because lithium aspartate was the lithium salt used by the 10 patients with PCC previously treated by one of us, is readily available as a dietary supplement to maximize patient accessibility, and because orotate increases the occurrence of several cancers in animal models.
I would like to see them compare results between lithium aspartate and lithium orotate at the same doses. Given aspartate's excitatory nature, was part of the lithium counteracting that, thus requiring the higher dose than orotate? Would lithium orotate at the lower dose provide the same result as lithium aspartate at the higher dose? I think the authors need to identify the contribution or detriment of each component.

Not trying to rain on the parade here, just my thoughts.

Update:
I don't want to dismiss the authors' concerns about cancer risk. There are concerns about lithium orotate. While I use it, it does make me a little uncomfortable. There is another alternative:
A neurocytological study on cerebellar granular neurons in culture under conditions of moderate glutamate stress showed that lithium ascorbate was more effective in supporting neuronal survival than chloride or carbonate, i.e., inorganic lithium salts. Biodistribution studies indicated accumulation of lithium ions in a sort of “depot”, potentially consisting of the brain, aorta, and femur. Lithium ascorbate is characterized by extremely low acute and chronic toxicity (LD50 > 5000 mg/kg) and also shows a moderate antitumor effect when used in doses studied (5 or 10 mg/kg)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35408651/

This is in rats, and these doses would be insane to translate to a human, but something to consider if you're thinking about lithium. There is a product that provides 1mg of lithium in this form.
 
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bad1080

Senior Member
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425
so we have:
-lithium carbonate
-lithium aspartate
-lithium ascorbate

do we know how these compare in regards to dosing? are they 1:1:1?
 

pamojja

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As already pointed out, each lithium compound contains different amounts of elemental lithium. Besides that, the different added compound might alter lithiums physiologic effects, or in itself may have different absorption kinetics. Altering the effect again.

Compound% Elemental Lithium (by mass)
Lithium carbonate18.78%
Lithium orotate3.83%
Lithium aspartate~5.0% (calculated)
Lithium ascorbate~3.8% (calculated)
Drinking water<<0.01% (trace, varies)
 

bad1080

Senior Member
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425
so i only took two 5mg orotate pills so far (1 per day) but i noticed an impact right away, like hours after taking the first one. usually all i get is side-effects but this gave me a mental and physical boost. in the evening i get gassy but idk if i can attribute it to the lithium because it's hours after taking it and nothing i haven't had before...

edit:
i just noticed i can feel my muscles again (stomach muscles). it's that weird feeling when improving where you go "oh, hello" to a muscle that felt like it was absent for a long time but it is "back" now.

edit2:
another thing i noticed is i feel taller and part of it might just be standing more upright because i have the energy to do so but it feels like there is something else to it. i noticed this a couple of times now how i feel taller when i feel better and the other part of it feels mental, like i'm being pulled on a string from the top of my head but mentally... idk if any of this makes sense, sorry if it doesn't

edit3:
and it doesn't feel like fake or nervous energy either. i just had a nap for an hour and it felt like i was able to relax more easily. usually it's quite the struggle for me and requires active relaxation techniques to calm down and even then it may not work. this time it felt like i was able to melt into the mattress without much effort. a very welcome effect i did not expect at all.
 
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bad1080

Senior Member
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when it says "5mg lithium (from lithium orotate)" on the box it means it contains 5mg lithium and not 3.83% of the 5mg are lithium, correct? (so it would equate to roughly 130mg orotate)

38.jpg
 

bad1080

Senior Member
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425
in the study it says "lithium aspartate, 45 mg/d" and i am guessing they are >not< talking about elemental lithium?

edit: yes:
each containing 5 mg of elemental lithium
but this would mean the lithium content in aspartate is much more than just ~5% (closer to 11%)

but it would also mean the lithium content in my supplement is the same as in the study, just from a different form.

edit2: but then it says:
lithium aspartate capsules
so nobody knows how many they took, if they took 2 it would be closer to 5% elemental lithium

but then it says:
lithium aspartate, 5 to 10 mg/d
so idk, i am confusion... especially since in the graphic it says 10-15mg/d... i am likely not in the right state of mind to figure this out rn
 
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pamojja

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Seems you're on track.
Eligible patients were randomly assigned (1:1) to receive overencapsulated lithium aspartate capsules, each containing 5 mg of elemental lithium or identically appearing, overencapsulated placebo capsules (filled with microcrystalline cellulose). ...
Patients were instructed to take 2 capsules per day for the initial 10 days. If their PCC symptoms were still bothersome, they could increase the dosage to 3 capsules per day for the last 11 days.

5 mg elemental lithium in one capsules. 2 capsules =10 mg elemental lithium.

I would take the Introduction, where they seemingly inconsistent talk of - lithium aspartate, 5 to 10 mg/d - an initial simplification, and trust the rather detailed Methods section (quoted above) instead.
 

pamojja

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By the way, with about 2.5 mg/d of elemental lithium for 16 years, had an average 0.6 mg/L of tested lithium in whole blood (0.01 - 0.05 mg/L normal range).
 
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