it's atime to get non-sloppy about these significant modulators

[atime]

I'm talking about supps. I have been playing with these things for over ten years and with my lack of info, lack of logging of progress. I probably have been spinning wheels or most likely caused more harm than good.

Now this forum seems like a place I can get pointers in the right direction.

What inspired me was a viewing of this thread :http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-gorilla-in-the-room.20229/page-5#post-355679

And also reading about deplin only treatment of depression on another board.

I think my negative energy and mood states are quite heavily influenced by organic factors, though like many people the self talk side of things could also do with a bit of help.

Anyway just reading around here for now and giving you a bit of background.

Was into sports type stimulant products for a few years then fairly burnt out. General fatigue, average moods, probably subtle to medium CFS like. Adrenal fatigue? Yes something along those lines but some people say adrenals can't be fatigued. I found advice somewhere about caffeine improving fatigue like symptoms and PEM which I was getting. I found it improved my life. At some times I overdid it, say 600mg+ a day. Though probably averaged 400-500mg per day.

Early this year went to hospital for an unrelated matter, lost a lot of fat and muscle, squashed my hormonal axis and had to get back on my feet.

When returning from hospital I found I couldn't tolerate caffeine anymore. More prone to anxiety/panic which I felt was fair enough considering my system was buggered from the extreme and sudden loss of weight and screwing my hormones. So I adopted a caffeine free life bar some chocolate. I am doing ok on this low caffeine life now but it took a while to get myself better. I reintroduced the stock standard supps that most people seem to use.

Though now I am more "clean" in my usage i.e. low stim, I think some things I am taking are making me feel worse.

In general I think I am a good converter towards adrenaline and overmethylator more than an under.

I have been taking approx 150mcg of methylfolate twice a day with food. 1g of TMG 3 times a day with food. Based on reading that people take far less TMG here I am going to wind it back. Perhaps to no TMG for now.

I took 900mg of methylfolate on an empty stomach yesterday and although it might have been placebo like worrying's I found it made me feel too anxious/worrisome. Though then I read that Fredd says you gotta push through that to higher doses...

I have also been taking approx 500-1000mcg MB12 sublingually twice a day. I don't know if it is the best idea but I was thinking to swap the same amount of dibencozide instead.

So from yesterday I am off the methylfolate for now. Off the TMG. Switching to dibencozide. Will probably reintroduces modest amounts of MTF and TMG back in later. Rest off the stuff pretty stock standard. I found Hip's thread about NAG last year. NAG seemed to induce a more mushy serotonin like feel last year when I was taking caffeine but this year when I have reintroduced it I don't get any effect.

Aiming for a more relaxed, less burnt out energy. And in general, less fatigue!

Anyway lets see how this goes.

By the way, when I first got into MB12 and MTF I didn't notice much of a change, but the caffeine was such a strong modulator for me that it seemed to override any noticeable changes from any removal or introduction of supps.

 

[halcyon]

Just out of curiosity, have you had a 23andMe test done yet?

 

[atime]

Partly due to laziness, and perhaps also partly due to "do I really wanna label myself?", I have not yet done this. I probably should if I wanna live up to being non-sloppy, but perhaps there are benefits to not knowing..

 

[Martial]

Partly due to laziness, and perhaps also partly due to "do I really wanna label myself?", I have not yet done this. I probably should if I wanna live up to being non-sloppy, but perhaps there are benefits to not knowing..

I think staying on the methyl folate and methyl b 12 combo would help a lot, though healing can be quite an up and down process for some time. There are other compounding things worth looking into as well. Vitamin D, testing for pyuloria which would rapidly deplete b6 and zinc messing up methylation, maybe a bacterial/viral panel, hormone testing, etc.

In my opinion I believe the adrenals can become dysfunctional through various reasons but actually "fatigued" is kind of a questionable thing to apply with hard science. Usually fixing the root problem will solve the other surrounding issues though. Do not worry too much about being an over or under methylator, just get on some solid methylation plan to help your system and it will help a lot.

Again make sure to check for any other pathogenic things that could be making you sick in the first place. Diet changes and cutting out things like gluten, wheat, and sugar can also help immensely. I have some good info on my sig for methylation, @caledonia has some amazing links on hers as well!

 

[ahmo]

@atime I don't have a direct response. but your mention of depression/deplin might mean you find this vid useful. I've only begun listening to it, but it's by top orthomolecular MD, begins listing the number of issues that seem to relate to methylation...I can't say more, haven't seen it.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...d-epigenetics-in-brain-disorders-video.32634/

 

[atime]

Thanks for the link @ahmo, will check it soon.

Thanks for the response @Martial.

I will see how I go without the mtf and mb12 and tmg for now. I think I am plainly taking too much and I think maybe one or maybe multiple things are hampering my progress.

I will let you guys know how I am going. Like I said I didn't notice much when I introduced mtf and mb12 a few years ago. Same when I re-got into my supps after hospital. I recall an aversion to tmg after hospital. So just going on instincts.

It might just be as simple as I gotta control my methylated supps. Or it might be an intertwined mess by now.

I know I'm a slow metaboliser of caffeine though I dunno how that's gonna make a difference now I'm not on it.

I don't know what the deal is with comt but I think I have some issue with that, that I worked out years ago, which led me to stop using gte.

Stopping and reintroducing things like wheat, gluten, sugar seems to have made no noticeable difference in the past. Though I think I should re-trial this sort of thing.

I will have to re-study the theories and biochemical mechanisms behind the supps I take or potentially will take again.

At least writing about it via this thread I can put things down and be accountable. It's a good exercise and I appreciate any input.

 

[ahmo]

I took 900mg of methylfolate on an empty stomach yesterday and although it might have been placebo like worrying's I found it made me feel too anxious/worrisome. Though then I read that Fredd says you gotta push through that to higher doses...

I have also been taking approx 500-1000mcg MB12 sublingually twice a day. I don't know if it is the best idea but I was thinking to swap the same amount of dibencozide instead.

Dibencozide (AdB12) does not do the same thing as MethylB12. It relates to ATP, not to the methylation cycle. I only learned this distinction from Fred recently, and can't elaborate, but to say swapping them does not serve you. Fred's currentadvice is to take Mfolate 6 days/week, and one day/week used AdB12 instead. He found they both absorb better this way.

I've compiled the core of Freddd's Protocol ina a pdf in my signature. (I haven't revised this AdB12 info) You might scroll through that. There are several entries re anxiety.

If folate makes you feel wired, there are 2 approaches. Ben Lynch advises taking some B3 to dampen the methylation. I have, instead, immediately taken a 1mg B12, which has worked beautifully, I've even then gone to sleep straight away.

 

[caledonia]

Hi @atime ,

I don't think you have a clear idea of what you're messing with. By taking the supplements you're taking, you're manipulating the methylation cycle, whether you realize it or not. The methylation cycle regulates over 30 major processes in the body. Everything in the methylation cycle is interrelated, and unfortunately, that makes it complicated. You can make yourself worse if you don't know what you're doing.

In general, your doses are too high for starting doses, which can cause problems. Some people need high doses, and other don't. You don't know which camp you fall into until you experiment. Freddd actually recommends starting very low and titrating up. I suggest the same thing, except probably a lot lower and slower than Freddd.

There is no single magic bullet. You can't necessarily "feel" if a supplement is helpful or not, and if you do, it may not be right away. These are not like prescription meds.

I would actually suggest stopping everything and getting back to a baseline. Then in the meantime, doing your homework on how to do a methylation protocol, and also getting some genetic and functional testing if you can manage it. Then start a journal (either online or offline) logging everything that you do.

I've been following a protocol I call "Yasko lite", which is mainly Heartfixer, with some Yasko, MTHFRsupport, Ben Lynch and Freddd throw in - basically whatever works.

I have this outlined in the first four links in my signature below, starting with the Methylation Made Easy videos, then the SNPs Interpretation Guide, Start Low and Go Slow and Roadblocks to Successful Methylation.

If you feel this is all too much, I have also have a link to finding methylation practitioners. You should be working with a doctor anyway (and/or naturopath or functional medicine doctor)

 

[caledonia]

@atime

Just a couple observations and questions:

I'm not sure about "adrenal fatigue" either. At least in my case, the adrenals are not actually fatigued, there is a signalling problem which causes them not to work. The adrenals themselves are actually fine. Fix the signalling upstream and the adrenal function will start to improve. I believe the signalling problem is due to glutathione depletion. Glutathione is created via methylation.

I've been able to partially fix my adrenals via a methylation protocol, while all the traditional methods have failed.

Mood problems are neurotransmitter problems and that is regulated by methylation. Most neurotransmitters are created in the gut, so that is another area to look at.

When you were in the hospital, did you have surgery? Did you have anesthesia? Both of those would be further stressors on an already depleted system.

Fatigue can be a number of things - poor thyroid and adrenal function, toxic metals such as lead and mercury, poor mitochondrial and Kreb's cycle function, poor methylation, probably some other stuff I can't think of right now.

 

[atime]

Thanks for the replies.

Yes I do feel at the moment it is a bit too much, but I will just have to get down to reading and watching the vids.

Have opted to keep some supplemental mtf orally just as a source of folate, probably 100-150mcg, either once or twice a day.

Dropped the TMG down to probably 250mg a day.

Having about 250mcg mb12, and 750mcg diben sublingual split up to twice a day.

Essentially just dropping doses of all of the above instead of going cold turkey to what my body has come accustomed to. I found my libido to drop suddenly when I stopped with the mtf and tmg and mb12.

Retrying selenium in the form of brazils, as I would suspect my diet has been low in selenium for quite some time.

Start low and go slow is a good idea. Possibly for me it will be start low and stay low.

 

[atime]

Got around to do some listening/reading. Listened to Dr Ben Lynch's interview in ahmo's link above. Made me think how little we know at the moment, and how much of an impact these little pills can effect. Interesting that he thought a person with MTFHR mutation should be able to be well with a good lifestyle and leafy greens.

Quite interested now in the adenosine info and glutamate modulation. I think I appreciated caffeine as an adenosine lowerer in the past.

Anyway on the low methyl deal now. Just taking small amounts of mb12, diben, and MTF. Have dropped TMG.

I feel better recently. Forgot what it feels like to be relaxed. Have just gotten used to the strung out feeling these past months. I thought I was just getting my nutrients in a nice well assimilated form ( methylated), but I think I made a mistake not considering my potential for causing trouble.

 

[SDSue]

@atime FWIW - early on, I threw everything at my illness. In huge doses. It was such a confusing time that I had no idea what was helping and what was hurting.

Most of that time, I was jittery, depressed, anxious, didn't sleep, couldn't think, etc. I'm not sure what was ME and what was over-supplementation, but I do know that once I stopped all the supplements (including B-12 in all forms, Mfolate, and many many others) I began to calm down.

I went back to the basics and eliminated gluten and dairy, which cleared up my GI troubles (took about 6 months to do so). Then I began working slowly on my sulfur, and seem to have gotten it down over the past several months (thanks to @caledonia!) so will now begin reintroducing methylation VERY slowly.

I've learned the hard way that this isn't a sprint. Hell, it's not even a marathon - it's an iron-man competition.

Best of luck to you in this journey. There's a lot of great information on PR from those who've gone before us. It's overwhelming at first, but it will start to make sense and you go along, one baby step at a time!