Intestinal permeability and evidence of immune activation

[guest]

Hi,

found this study to be interesting.
"Alterations in the colonic flora and intestinal permeability and evidence of immune activation in chronic constipation.

Khalif IL, Quigley EM, Konovitch EA, Maximova ID.
State Scientific Center for Coloproctology, Moscow, Russia.

Abstract
BACKGROUND: Disturbances in bowel function in chronic constipation could result in changes in the colonic flora and lead to disordered immunity and to decreased resistance to pathogenic flora. AIM: To investigate systemic immunity, the faecal flora and intestinal permeability in patients with chronic constipation, under basal conditions and following therapy with the laxative Bisacodyl. METHODS: Intestinal permeability, faecal flora analysis, T- and B-lymphocyte numbers, T-cell subpopulations, lymphocyte proliferation, phagocytosis, intracellular killing of Staphylococcus aureus by neutrophils, as well as circulating levels of immunoglobulins, immune complexes and antibacterial antibodies were assessed in 57 patients with functional constipation. In 12 patients with severely delayed transit, investigations were repeated following therapy with Bisacodyl. RESULTS: Ovalbumin concentrations, in serum, were higher in constipated patients (28.2+/-4.1 ng/ml versus 1.0+/-0.4 ng/ml, p < 0.05). Elevated counts of CD3+, CD4+, CD25+ cells, increased spontaneous proliferation of lymphocytes, elevated titres of antibodies to Escherichia coli and S. aureus, diminished counts of CD72+ B cells, diminished lymphocyte proliferation under phytohemagglutinin (PHA) stimulation and a diminished phagocytic index for both neutrophils and monocytes were found in the constipated patients. Concentrations of Bifidobacterium and Lactobacillus were significantly lower in constipated patients; potentially pathogenic bacteria and/or fungi were increased. Therapy with Bisacodyl resulted in normalisation of the faecal flora, a reduction in ovalbumin concentration and return towards normal for certain immunologic parameters. CONCLUSION: Constipation is associated with striking changes in the faecal flora, intestinal permeability and the systemic immune response. Relief of constipation tends to normalise these findings suggesting that these changes are secondary to, rather than a cause of, constipation."

PMID: 16169298 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Karin]

My 4 year old son has been struggling with constipation since he turned 2 year old, though he has an excellent diet, lots of vegetables, all natural cooked from scratch, probiotics, oils, yadayada. He had several impactions already, confirmed by abdominal x-ray. I can tell you I am an expert at enemas, glycerin suppositories, rectal exams, miralax, high dose vitamin C, milk of magnesia and other magnesium products, senna, prune juice, Plumsmart, carnitine, fiber, flax oil, you name it. Whatever exists out there for constipation, I have tried it. After two years of this and very little success, I can tell you that in his case, only ONE thing works 100% in 48 hours, and it is not listed above: Flagyl. For my son, Flagyl solves the problem in 48 hours, or more exactly, it takes 48 hours for the bowel to start moving again, and then it is one or two weeks of CLEAN UP, lots and lots of poop. After about three weeks of Flagyl, I discontinue, and he is FINE for 3 to 6 months. Then SUDDENLY, almos overnight, his bowel stop moving, his BMs become smelly, dark and very sticky, and then it just stops. Then the only thing that comes out, maybe once every other day, is brown smelly liquid. I have never been able to resolve the constipation without Flagyl, no matter how many enemas and miralax I give him. Now I don't even bother. Last time he had a constipation flare, I gave him Flagyl only, nothing else, and he cleaned up completely in a couple weeks. It has not come back yet.

Our doc thinks he gets flares of anaerobic bacteria overgrowth, likely some clostridia strains, that produce toxins that impair bowel muscle function. With Flagyl we kill these and bowel motility resumes, until these bacteria flare again, often right after a viral infection.

I have no idea if this is a unique case or if this is common. Our doc says most GI docs or pediatrician have no clue about that and would not even think of trying Flagyl for severe constipation.

 

[Francelle]

That's amazing Karin - ie. your son's response to Flagyl!!!!

 

[taniaaust1]

Hi,

found this study to be interesting. There probably aren't many people here who suffer from constipation and leaky gut but I do and I can confirm that relief of constipation normalizes leaky gut to some degree. Constipation is related to overgrowth of bad bacteria (coli, aureus) and reduction of good bacteria (bifido, lacto).

Thanks for sharing that article.

Due to the CFS, i have IBS of the predominant constipation variety (thou i get diarhear when i suddenly develop food intollerances so i figure i must have a leaky gut to). IBS happens in three forms.. those who get mostly constipation with it.. those who commonly get both constipation and diarhear and those who are predominantly diarhear. Thou IBS is common in CFS, i have no idea of the rates of the types in CFS.

Concentrations of Bifidobacterium and Lactobacillus were significantly lower in constipated patients

One of my doctors had me taking probotics for the predominately constipation kind of IBS. Now i understand why.

 

[JillBohr]

CONCLUSION: Constipation is associated with striking changes in the faecal flora, intestinal permeability and the systemic immune response. Relief of constipation tends to normalise these findings suggesting that these changes are secondary to, rather than a cause of, constipation."

Does this mean that if you clean the gut out, the fungal problems will go away and that it is not the fungal overgrowth that is causing the problem but is a result of the constipation? Am I getting this right? This is important because I am the process of cleaning out my kids gut at the moment. He is intense pain.

 

[richvank]

My 4 year old son has been struggling with constipation since he turned 2 year old, though he has an excellent diet, lots of vegetables, all natural cooked from scratch, probiotics, oils, yadayada. He had several impactions already, confirmed by abdominal x-ray. I can tell you I am an expert at enemas, glycerin suppositories, rectal exams, miralax, high dose vitamin C, milk of magnesia and other magnesium products, senna, prune juice, Plumsmart, carnitine, fiber, flax oil, you name it. Whatever exists out there for constipation, I have tried it. After two years of this and very little success, I can tell you that in his case, only ONE thing works 100% in 48 hours, and it is not listed above: Flagyl. For my son, Flagyl solves the problem in 48 hours, or more exactly, it takes 48 hours for the bowel to start moving again, and then it is one or two weeks of CLEAN UP, lots and lots of poop. After about three weeks of Flagyl, I discontinue, and he is FINE for 3 to 6 months. Then SUDDENLY, almos overnight, his bowel stop moving, his BMs become smelly, dark and very sticky, and then it just stops. Then the only thing that comes out, maybe once every other day, is brown smelly liquid. I have never been able to resolve the constipation without Flagyl, no matter how many enemas and miralax I give him. Now I don't even bother. Last time he had a constipation flare, I gave him Flagyl only, nothing else, and he cleaned up completely in a couple weeks. It has not come back yet.

Our doc thinks he gets flares of anaerobic bacteria overgrowth, likely some clostridia strains, that produce toxins that impair bowel muscle function. With Flagyl we kill these and bowel motility resumes, until these bacteria flare again, often right after a viral infection.

I have no idea if this is a unique case or if this is common. Our doc says most GI docs or pediatrician have no clue about that and would not even think of trying Flagyl for severe constipation.

Hi, Karin.

I don't think you mentioned trying probiotics. Have you done that? If not, maybe it would help the friendly bacteria to get the upper hand in your son's gut, so that the anaerobic bacteria would be permanently suppressed after one of the Flagyl treatments. Killing the bad bugs is a great idea, but if they are not replaced by the good ones, they will come back.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Karin]

Hi, Karin.

I don't think you mentioned trying probiotics. Have you done that? If not, maybe it would help the friendly bacteria to get the upper hand in your son's gut, so that the anaerobic bacteria would be permanently suppressed after one of the Flagyl treatments. Killing the bad bugs is a great idea, but if they are not replaced by the good ones, they will come back.

Best regards,

Rich

Thanks Rich. Oh yes, we take each about 200 billions of CFUs total of various strains of four different probiotic formulations. I know that theoretically it should work, but for some reason it doesn't, at least not 100%.
Karin

 

[judderwocky]

Thanks Rich. Oh yes, we take each about 200 billions of CFUs total of various strains of four different probiotic formulations. I know that theoretically it should work, but for some reason it doesn't, at least not 100%.
Karin

KEFIR KEFIR KEFIR... and a little diatomaceous earth......

probiotic yogurts are lucky if they can get over 500 billioni CFU limit.... Kefir has like 5 trillion per serving... there are about 20-40 strains in home made kefir.... most probiotics only have 5 strains at most.... i tried a ton of probiotics... bb12, activia, lactospore, bio salud, align,.... etc..... NOTHING can even REMOTELY touch KEFIR. Make it yourself at home. I got grains from someone that lived nearby and i make it every morning.... kefir has a lot things that will be good even apart from the bacteria.... it has tryptophan which helps make melatonin and serotonin... lots of vitamin B......

i could keep kefir down when nothing else would stay...its nutritious and amazing.

kefir also has two strains that can colonize the gut... yogurt based probiotics can't do that.... kefir is unique... the strains that live in kefir live together and collectively fight off invaders... its weird... if you want more information i would suggest visiting Dom's kefir site... he had ulcerative colitis and cured it by eating kefir and kefir related priobiotics.... but basically the lactobacillus strains in kefir are extra specially good for you and very cooperative with the other pribiotics...

http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html

diotamceous earth is a mineral deposit that can clear out the stomach and intestines... its mass cleared for fda consumption...it kills off stomach parasites supposedly ... helps pull out bad bacteria and heavy metals.... i think it helps some too...

 

[xrayspex]

thats interesting about flagyl
I have had similar experience with mutaflor from metropolitan pharm in germany
its from ww1 originally
handsdown best thing ever took for my gut

 

[xrayspex]

interesting when I go to wikipedia to see what they say about mutaflor I am surprised how much gErmany has researched it
what is up with that country being so progressive about health compared to US? geez I wish I could get ins. to cover mutaflor instead of toxic crap like prilosec or zantac (toxic in me)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutaflor

 

[acer2000]

thats interesting about flagyl
I have had similar experience with mutaflor from metropolitan pharm in germany
its from ww1 originally
handsdown best thing ever took for my gut

Do you know if the mutaflor for sale in the US and Canada is the same as the stuff they sell in germany? I know originally you had to order it from Germany, but I thought I read they have distribution in the US/Canada now?

The german website:

http://www.ardeypharm.de/en/

The USA one:

http://mutaflor.us/

Also did you just take it by itself to see what would happen, or did your doctor identify a particular pattern of dysbiosis that you treated with it?

acer

 

[katiemoomoo]

I was born with E. COLI

http://http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CDcQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fhealth%2Farticle-156084%2FCould-E-coli-bug-beat-prostate-cancer.html&ei=MLRmTM-1PI7KjAet2azUBA&usg=AFQjCNHgMngA2m8i0k3byv141uE5ibit4Q&sig2=aqWe-NNuI67fMbznljmsAwMy mum informed me that I was born with E. COLI. Nearly died. I had multiple throat infections and my tonsils out aged 5. I had chicken pox 5 times. Then leukaemia at 19 at 7 months pregnant. and a shingles virus hormone change then 6 years ago the ME/CFS came. and I have had multiple shingle outbreaks. I wonder if its anything to do with E.COLI?

 

[richvank]

My mum informed me that I was born with E. COLI. Nearly died. I had multiple throat infections and my tonsils out aged 5. I had chicken pox 5 times. Then leukaemia at 19 at 7 months pregnant. and a shingles virus hormone change then 6 years ago the ME/CFS came. and I have had multiple shingle outbreaks. I wonder if its anything to do with E.COLI?

Hi, Katie.

It sounds to me as though you have an immune deficiency involving your cell-mediated immunity. Perhaps it started with early exposure to a pathogenic form of E. coli. Note that there are different strains of E. coli, and some are beneficial and normal members of the gut flora, while others cause disease. When a baby is born, the immune system is not completely developed. Its development depends partly on the bacteria to which it is first exposed. At birth, the gastrointestinal tract is sterile. In a normal birth, the baby swallows bacterial from the mother's birth canal on the way out, and this introduces bacteria into the gastrointestinal tract, which helps the immune system to develop. If the baby is breastfed, this brings in some other bacteria. All of this helps the immune system to develop normally.

If a baby is delivered by Caesarean section, and/or if a baby is not breast fed, this may produce different flora in the gut and a different response of the developing immune system. Also, if a baby is exposed to a pathogenic bacteria early on, this can perturb things, too. I consulted on one case in which the person was exposed to Staph. aureus in the hospital shortly after birth. Antibiotic treatment was given, and the result was that Group A beta hemolytic Strep. got started, and the person developed lifelong OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder) from PANDAS (pediatric autoimmune neurological disease associated with Streptococcus).

I understand that some hospitals are now innoculating Caesarean-delivered babies with bacteria from the mother's birth canal by smearing vaginal mucus on their faces. Sorry that this is kind of gross.

There is also something called the "hygiene hypothesis" that suggests that children raised in "too clean" environments do not develop normal immune system function because their immune systems are not exposed to certain bacteria early on.

I recently had a shingles outbreak myself, though my immune system is generally in good condition. I can't give individual treatment advice unless a physician is on board to evaluate my suggestions. However, I will tell you how I dealt with my shingles outbreak, which was over in about a week: L-lysine 6 grams per day, N-acetylcysteine 1 gram per day, and vitamin C 3 grams per day. The theory behind this is that shingles is caused by a herpes-family virus, varicella zoster (or herpes zoster). There are two ways I know of to put herpes family viruses back into latency. One is to raise the ratio of lysine to arginine in the body, and the other is to raise the level of glutathione and the ratio of reduced glutathione to oxidized glutathione. This treatment is directed at doing those things. I don't know if it would work for you, since, as I mentioned, it appears that you have an immune deficiency. If you decide to try any of this, you should work with your physician.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[xrayspex]

I think the mutaflor would be the same, the stuff I get is from metropolitan pharmacy in germany, seems like ok price compared to that US/canadian site, i think its like 120usdollar for 100 tablets from metro, they charge euros like 90eu.

hey diesel, when I take stuff to address constip. like fruiteze which is dates and prunes I think, or that drugstore stuff, what is that, miralax perhaps, anyway, when I take something that targeted I get a very strange flare up like the next day or the one after that, where homebound pretty much and feel toxic, it really dissuades me from taking those approaches its so unpleasant and debilitating. Taking oil seems not so bad, but what do you think that bad reaction to the other stuff is about?

 

[Mij]

Kefir and Sauerkraut

KEFIR KEFIR KEFIR... and a little diatomaceous earth......

I'm with you on the Kefir. Expensive probiotics and homemade yogurt did nothing to help my gut flora, my Great Smokies test confirmed I had zero Lactoba so all the money I spent on supplements was a waste. You're right probiotics do not colonize in the gut, it's transient.

I'm going to start making my own sauerkraut soon, I'm ordering a Harsch crock to make it, it's pricey but I figure I won't make any mistakes this way. Sauerkraut is very nutritious in vitamins, particularily vitamin C, minerals and fiber.

Mij

 

[katiemoomoo]

Thank you rich, for taliking the time to write all thius I missed it somehow. I will speak with My GP.
katie