Interview with Kris Newby author of the book “Bitten”: The Secret History of Lyme Disease and Biological Weapons

[Wally]

Great interview. Definitely worth your time to listen to this interview, especially if you want to understand why Lyme Disease and other Arthopod Related Illnesses can destroy lives with just one bite. Who knew that ticking time bombs of the 21st Century had been unleashed on our world?
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If you are interested in passing this interview on for others to watch via social media, I have linked it to a Facebook page that can be found here (or you can share it to social media sites via the “Share” button located under the video on its YouTube page) -

https://www.facebook.com/100009139181828/posts/2242515686063049

Unfortunately sharing information like this (and perhaps info, about M.E.) can be made very difficult by the social media gatekeepers/censors.
See, 1) https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health-news/pinterest-blocks-vaccination-searches/ar-BBTQtNj and 2) https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/0...struggle-to-help-censors-keep-us-in-the-dark/ and 3) https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/03/the-social-media-censorship-dumpster-fire/

 

[Mel9]

Amazing! I Was largely unaware of the evil work done on biological warfare during the cold war.

I am interested in her idea that there is an ongoing cover-up in USA regarding Lyme disease, and that the short term doxy prescribed is directed at killing an accidentally released biological warfare Ricketsia, rather than Borrelia burgdorferii itself. I have often been puzzled by the odd insistence that one course of antibiotics was sufficient to kill Borrelia, against so much evidence to the contrary.

But I wonder why doctors in other countries (presumably without the accidental release of these altered tickborne bacteria?) have continued this false advice?

I wonder: how does her discovery apply to non-US Borrelia? Is the US Lyme worse than that in other continents?

Incidentally:
She mentioned that exercise was important to her. This seems to shows the difference between ‘pure’ Lyme disease and MECFS/Lyme with its Post Exertional Malaise?

 

[keepontruckin]

I thought it was interesting that she mentioned trypanisomes were one of the weapons placed in ticks.

Governments have their nerve accusing people of lacking credibility when they say they have chronic lyme. There is such a huge systemic lack of credibility denying cfs and chronic lyme

 

[duncan]

@Mel9 , many countries simply followed the CDC's lead, almost blindly. It became entrenched in Europe, for instance, by the early 90's.

Is US Borrelia worse than others? I'm not sure that is established. I think the IDSA/CDC would claim just the opposite. But I think she suggests it is.

She also seems to think that the true agent behind what was dubbed Lyme may have been a chimera. According to her book, the Swiss Agent - helvetica ricketsia - was identified by Burgdorfer same time he identified "Lyme" and he appeared to think that the Swiss agent was the culprit, but then suddenly changed his mind and references to the Swiss Agent disappeared until 2016 or there abouts.

She appears to think it may be some genetically engineered hybrid, if I understand her interviews, not simply Borrelia or ricketsia.

I should wait to respond to this post as I am tired and there is so much to unpack...

But excellent book! Chalk full of dark discussions, seriously disturbing stuff. I devoured it, at least in terms as my brain could handle it in measured, limited readings over several days.

Re:"Incidentally" - My guess would be she is just toeing the Lyme line that you exercise because oxygen hurts Bb.

 

[duncan]

@Hip writes, "I have not looked into it at all..."

I would be delighted to discuss Borrelia and the book's implications with you once you come up to speed.

 

[Hip]

I would be delighted to discuss Borrelia and the book's implications with you once you come up to speed.

I've previously read about the idea that Lyme disease came from the Plum Island biowarfare research unit, but it seems to be a lot of hot air. That idea came from a book by author Michael Carroll, who is not a scientist, and provided not a scrap of evidence to support his idea.

Personally, I think more authors should write serious and scientific books about how the various infectious pathogens that Mother Nature has made are the possible causes of a whole host of diseases. We need to understand that Mother Nature has created some terrible things herself.

 

[duncan]

I am not saying there is necessarily anything wrong with walking blind into a conversation not really knowing the subject matter, but I've lived long enough that I try not to do it too often.

Edited to add: I think the idea you have to be a scientist to report about science was dispelled a long time ago. There is a reason reporters and other writers that may not be scientists get nominated for Pulitzers - and this includes the area of Lyme. Just ask Mary Beth Pfeiffer.

Re: Mother Nature - My goodness!

 

[duncan]

Regardless, any worthwhile, knowledgeable Lyme narrative is one part science and one part politics and two parts question marks. Good sourced data, with references throughout, is accordingly a plus. Like in this book, which if memory serves me mentions Plum Island once.

My two cents - for what that is worth - is that, in great measure, understanding what is going on with Borrelia and other TBDs means retracing steps. You capture the history of Lyme, you understand better what is happening today, and maybe going forward.

 

[Wally]

For those who might be interested in listening to this interview before condemning the subject matter of the book/interview, the author, and the mental state of some Lyme patients, I would suggest that you make up your own mind about whether @Hip or other people posting on the Forum should dissuade you from looking at other hypotheses or opinions that may not align with their own.

@Hip - I do appreciate all the contributions you make here on the Forum and I often enjoy reading all the science related info. you bring to the Forum for members and others to review.

Glad to carry on a conversation with you in the future on the merits or lack thereof of the author, the interview, the book or what is considered a “quality” newspaper should you decide that you want to discuss this topic(s) in more detail.

This Forum is suppose to serve as welcoming place for members (especially patients) to share their thoughts, ask questions and not to feel summarily dismissed or censored because they might hold different views, levels of education or life experiences. This Forum went through a very difficult period of time when the opinions of some who wanted the Forum to be heavily based on science info. (as they saw it) allowed for very little room for discussion of topics or beliefs that might be a outside a traditional view of science. Just hoping that we can continue to keep the tone of this Forum a little more welcoming and open minded to lots of ideas even if they might not align with one’s own personal opinions, beliefs or what is currently known from a scientific perspective. I just think that we have enough “thought” censors in life and in this and other illnesses that it is nice to have somewhere that allows a free flow of ideas even if later some of those ideas may not prove to be correct.

 

[andyguitar]

There is a bit of a problem with the idea that Lyme was developed/altered to use as a bio-weapon. It is not bad enough and is easily treated using cheap drugs. Also if ticks were going to be used to transmit Lyme, or any other bio-weapon, this would result in the weapon remaining active long after the target-the enemy- had been infected. Which would pose a threat to an occupying force. Best weapons are viral one's that are lethal and untreatable. There are lots of these. Lyme is not an option for warfare.

 

[duncan]

I cannot for the life of me figure out how to copy a poster's line anymore.

@andyguitar :

a) Many very intelligent scientists and clinicians have weighed into this argument over the past few years, and they would disagree with your first observation. They would argue that Borrelia can be bad, and can be very difficult to treat using cheap drugs or any drugs, for that matter. Especially when packaged with other pathogens, which evidently was actively looked at over 50 years ago.

b) Why do you assume the intent for a bioweapon of this sort was meant as a prelude to an invasion? There are uses that do not entail this. It could be used to economically handicap an adversary, for instance. Hundreds disabled could be telling - tens of thousands, or more, disabled, could be devastating for an economy.

c) As for which weapons are best - swift and lethal vs something incapacitating and relentless - that would depend on the goals. Apparently there are records of these sorts of discussions within government agencies from the 50's and 60's.

Vectors were the main discussion points with many of these efforts. Ticks were only one such vector. Borrelia - and several of its species - was just one pathogen.

 

[Hip]

I just think that we have enough “thought” censors in life and in this and other illnesses that it is nice to have somewhere that allows a free flow of ideas even if later some of those ideas may not prove to be correct.

I don't think we have enough. The issue of Internet media echo chambers is an increasing problem: such echo chambers allow an idea to spread virally on the Internet, in a hearsay manner, usually by people who don't have sufficient knowledge to critically assess the validity of the material they are passing on in this hearsay way. Sometimes this viral spread is harmless, but other times it can cause major problems.

Alex Jones was brought to court for his role in propagating the Sandy Hook conspiracy theory, a horrible situation which saw the parents of children shot dead in Sandy Hook then being exposed to a series of nasty death threats by people who fell for the conspiracy theory that these parents were just actors paid to pretend their child had been shot, in order to fight the gun lobby. That shows what damage can be done when ideas are propagated without critical analysis.

Interestingly enough, Alex Jones is now saying that a form of psychosis caused him to believe that the Sandy Hook massacre was staged.



In a field that is as scientifically controversial as Lyme, it's not going to help anyone by bringing in the idea that Lyme disease was man made. The more controversial a field is, the more important it is to remain sober and scientific.

I agree with you that people should have the space to express ideas, even if they later turn out to be incorrect. But sometimes ideas can have negative consequences, and I think trying to portray Lyme as a man-made infectious disease when there's no evidence for it would lead to negative consequences, if this idea were allowed to propagate unchecked in the Internet media echo chambers. That's why above I made robust comments against it.

 

[Hip]

I have not read it, but I note that those here who have are not actually providing any material from the book that can be discussed and scientifically analyzed on this thread.

 

[Mary]

I cannot for the life of me figure out how to copy a poster's line anymore.

Here's an excellent video by @Hip which shows how to copy a poster's line and several other things. If you click on "show more" at the bottom of the video, a timecode menu will appear which shows timecodes for all the various posting tips

Whoops! Forgot to post the link!

 

[andyguitar]

If you want to select a bio-weapon for any form of warfare ie to capture territory and resources, kill the enemy, or undermine their economy then look at agents that probably have been weaponised in the past. Try Smallpox, Plague, Ebola, Lassa Fever, Anthrax. Compare with Lyme. Ideas about Lyme being an escaped Bio Weapon dont make things better for anyone. They just push Lyme further and further into becoming a cult.

 

[Hip]

Ideas about Lyme being an escaped Bio Weapon dont make things better for anyone. They just push Lyme further and further into becoming a cult.

Exactly. I think a book like this can cause harm.

When some years ago I looked into the claims of Michael Carroll that Lyme was a man-made idea, I concluded that there was no evidence to support this. Just wild speculation with no substance.

The fact that different species of Borrelia are found anyway in different countries around the world, which can also cause Lyme disease, clearly indicates this is not a man-made disease.

In one of the Amazon reviews I read, it said Kris Newby's book contains no new information or evidence over the original Michael Carroll book to support the man-made assertion (which itself provided no evidence, just wild assumption). So there is zero evidence that Lyme is man-made.

This article says of Michael Carroll's book:

But urban legends continue to propagate. One author, Michael Carroll, wrote a 2004 book called Lab 257: The Disturbing Story of the Government's Secret Plum Island Germ Laboratory in which he asserts, among other things, that Plum Island created Lyme disease, and even caused a 1975 outbreak of it.

Carroll also suggested that other outbreaks on the mainland were caused by Plum Island, including Dutch duck plague in 1967 and West Nile virus in 1999.

Although his many fanciful claims (supported only by his own speculation) are not taken seriously by people who know better, the general public generally doesn't; and when the only publicized information about a place is created by people like Jesse Ventura and books like this, it should surprise no one that the rumors persist.

 

[Lisa108]

A quote from Kirkus Reviews (who are not just copying the publishers text):

While there are intriguing hints, including a couple of laconic statements by Burgdorfer before his death in 2014, Newby admits that the case for Lyme as a germ disease experiment that went literally “viral” remains unproven.

[my bolding]

 

[Wolfcub]

I thought it was interesting that she mentioned trypanisomes were one of the weapons placed in ticks.

Governments have their nerve accusing people of lacking credibility when they say they have chronic lyme. There is such a huge systemic lack of credibility denying cfs and chronic lyme

@keepontruckin I do often think that any disease where there are very numerous, and non-specific symptoms; symptoms that could be related to a host of other diseases, and which have to be eliminated one by one by expensive testing, could be the reason why both chronic Lyme, and ME/CFS get such a bad rap.

Both ME/CFS and Lyme are not only hard to diagnose, but can be very resistant to treatments, especially when they become chronic and long term disabilities.

I often think that the medical profession hate not having a cut-and-dried solution, thus are inclined to throw both diseases into a "we don't really know what the heck is happening" trash heap.

Then of course, erroneous or badly researched ideas about either disease do not help and can hinder further credibility (for example the GET and CBT "solutions" for ME/CFS which seem to hang on in the medical profession, in the obvious absence of any benefit to patients.)

 

[duncan]

The book does not put forth scientific theory, per se, so this aspect of the book cannot be discussed here. It is incorrect to think not discussing a theory about, for example, genetically engineering a new species of Borrelia, is a flaw in any poster here, because that was not really fleshed out that much in the book. It is only addressed peripherally, if my memory serves me. The book has more the feel to it of a documentary; it reports with proper attribution. In my opinion, it is long on documenting factual occurrences, kinda short on conjecture - I think she is comfortable letting the reader do the speculating.

The book chronicles and documents Burgdorfer's history working with bioagents that evidently were being considered (not by him, but by the government he worked for)as viable bioweapons that could be delivered via different vectors that included ticks. This chronicling of Burgorfer's work history parallel's, in the book, the overarching government investigations into researching different pathogens as bioweapons, and different methods of deploying those pathogens. It delves into his expertise with spirochetes, which eventually would aid in his discovery of Bb. It also parses down into some of the tactics being considered, such as bio-agents that would be hard, if not impossible, to identify, so that a given adversarial target would be unable to even name the disease, and accordingly, unable to trace anything back to the US.

An idea that is suggested in the book is that instead of Borrelia making people persistently sick, it may be a new strain of ricketsia that Burgdorfer found in the same ticks - from Long Island - he found Borrelia in back in 1982. This idea is not developed to any degree - it is simply reported that this happened, and acknowledged that it is puzzling that no one knew this for close to 50 years. It also takes a pretty close look at developing the Russian Doll thing, ie, packaging multiple pathogins in different tick species, so that victims wouldn't just contract a single disease or parasite, they'd be sickened with two or three. Of course, this is precisely what has been happening, only researchers and clinicians are only now (last five to 10 years) realizing it.

So this book is primarily an exercise in reporting documented and sourced events that occurred that involved ticks and Borrelia and Ricketsia and a whole boat load of other agents. It's thoroughly sourced and documented, so if you have issues, you can check her bibliography.

As I said before, I do not need to explain the issues with Lyme by attaching a bio-weapons genealogy to it. I just can read all the studies that came out as the history of Lyme has evolved since 1975. Which I pretty much have done.

I can explain the weirdness of denying perhaps more than 20% of Lyme patients are failed by abx therapy easily. I can chalk it up to greed and legacy concerns, among others.

But if facts emerge that suggest there were efforts at weaponizing ticks, and playing with different pathogens, I'm not going to pretend they aren't there, and neither should anyone else. They could matter.

There is no such thing as a Lyme cult. There are simply patients who have been diagnosed with Lyme, many via the CDC-recommended 2T testing, including myself. Far too many are failed by the same CDC's recommended abx therapy.

There are puzzles that could be explained by the weapons thing, but they really aren't needed. BUT, the one nagging question that it would satisfy in me is it would answer WHY the govt via the IDSA and CDC so reprehensibly mischarcterized the patients that were being diagnosed with Lyme via the 2T. To this day, that element escapes me. Why portray these patients as not being sick when they knew better? Why go out of their way to try to paint disabled patients as perfectly healthy people who just are confused by the "aches and pains of every day life"?

This is why I do not think this is book is bad for the Lyme community, as long as it is speaking to verified events and documents. Because if it is true, and it supplies another piece to the puzzle, then Lyme patients, at least, may want to familiarize themselves with it.

 

[Wolfcub]

What I can't get is -why bio-weaponise something like Lyme?
What you get with chronic Lyme is a host of sick people, not (mostly) sick enough to drop dead but enough to put great strain on benefits systems, and other social care systems.

It surely would make greater sense to bio-weaponise something more deadly?

I get it that Lyme is not always easy to diagnose, and some cases must go undiagnosed, and of course, it's difficult to trace the source (except a Tick, somewhere, somehow) And lyme is difficult to treat sometimes.

But surely it would be just as easy to bio-weaponise an antibiotic/antiviral resistant strain of pneumonia, which has a greater chance of killing people?