High Vit B6 and B1, which are the cofactors?

[jason30]

Hi all,

A regular blood test by the doc showed high vitamin B1 and vitamin B6.
I don't take a Vitamin B complex or any other supplement with vitamin B1 or vitamin B6 in it.

I didn't tested the active versions of B1 and B6, but I am guessing that I am deficient in one of the cofactors which blocks it from converting it to the active form.

I do know that they both need magnesium to get activated. I am taking mag glycinate.
But I wonder what the other cofactors of B1 and B6 are, does anybody know these?

 

[Judee]

I couldn't find much on this but Seeking Health B Complex says it contains Choline as a cofactor to the B vitamins. Unfortunately it doesn't specify which.

This website listing also says "B5 assists the other B vitamins in converting food into usable energy.

Hope this helps a little anyway until our "resident" brainiacs can weigh in and give you more info.

 

[pamojja]

Though that graph is certainly grossly simplified, it does look as everything could be involved.

 

[percyval577]

Recently I have read this review: B Vitamins and the Brain: Mechanisms, Dose and Efficacy
but I think they didn´t tell anything about cofactors. (Maybe they are not known?)

But chocolate contains a lot of metals, which are often cofactors.

Recently I found out that a metal management along with the intake of four B´s is key for me.
With chocolate my experience is to better stick to smaller amounts, say 9-38g.
I eat only milk chocolate (for a special reason I get bad effects from dark chocolate, obviously Mn will be resorbed which is noticable for me, chocolate contains also oxale acid which is a chelator for Mn, capturing it, so here is a bit an open question).

I had also good effects from drinking cocoa, here as well even small amounts had an effect (it happens that I now drink a cup).

I tested it in alteration with citrate acid which is a chelator for metals (juice from one lemon in 1l water and drinking from this water over some time). So in my case I think to reconfigurate metals in my brain, though the tasks of the metaks seem to be only little known. But I think that my nerves act where the metals are, like a road, and because I am improving fom low manganese this helps (but wold be probabaly a bad idea when getting worse, accelerating the worsening, I guess).

I take B 5, 7, 2, 1, but I must not take B 6 and 9, maybe also not 3. I havn´t got my blood measured.
I also took B12, with the lemon water 75-150µg. B12 has an instantanious effect on me.

 

[ljimbo423]

I didn't tested the active versions of B1 and B6, but I am guessing that I am deficient in one of the cofactors which blocks it from converting it to the active form.

The active form of B6 is P5P (Pyridoxal 5'-phosphate ) and the active form of B1 is TPP (Thiamine pyrophosphate). Both are available as supplements.

It might be easier than trying to find the co-factor or co-factors that you need to be able to convert B1 and B6 to their active forms.

 

[wigglethemouse]

@jason30 Some folks on this thread with high B6 found their alkaline phosphatase runs at the low end of the range. Be interesting if you could check yours (metabolic panel test)
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...oken-copies-of-ido2.75246/page-2#post-2184778

Another thread here about high B6 and B1
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/question-about-b6.57798/

 

[BeADocToGoTo1]

Absorption of B6 is complicated, involving phosphorylation and dephosphorylation, oxidation and reduction, amination and deamination, all primarily taking place in the jejunum and ileum portions of the small intestine. So any type of malabsorption or microbiome dysbiosis can also cause issues.

ALP, vitamins B2, B3, molybdenum, zinc and magnesium are all needed to absorb and utilize vitamin B6.

 

[jason30]

Thanks all for your reactions and thinking along.

Though that graph is certainly grossly simplified, it does look as everything could be involved.

Thanks, they are all connected. But I hear more and more from people that have raised levels for both B1 and B6, while other B's don't.

But chocolate contains a lot of metals, which are often cofactors.

Recently I found out that a metal management along with the intake of four B´s is key for me.

I tested it in alteration with citrate acid which is a chelator for metals (juice from one lemon in 1l water and drinking from this water over some time). So in my case I think to reconfigurate metals in my brain, though the tasks of the metaks seem to be only little known. But I think that my nerves act where the metals are, like a road, and because I am improving fom low manganese this helps (but wold be probabaly a bad idea when getting worse, accelerating the worsening, I guess).

I take B 5, 7, 2, 1, but I must not take B 6 and 9, maybe also not 3. I havn´t got my blood measured.
I also took B12, with the lemon water 75-150µg. B12 has an instantanious effect on me.

That's very interesting Percy!
Never knew that metals were cofactors. Do you know some sources to read more about this?

Do you take the Vitamin B12 in the morning? Recently my b12 dropped badly and MMA increased a lot = shortage of B12.

The active form of B6 is P5P (Pyridoxal 5'-phosphate ) and the active form of B1 is TPP (Thiamine pyrophosphate). Both are available as supplements.

It might be easier than trying to find the co-factor or co-factors that you need to be able to convert B1 and B6 to their active forms.

Thanks, but taking the active forms does not guarantee that the serum level goes down?

@jason30 Some folks on this thread with high B6 found their alkaline phosphatase runs at the low end of the range. Be interesting if you could check yours (metabolic panel test)
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...oken-copies-of-ido2.75246/page-2#post-2184778

Another thread here about high B6 and B1
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/question-about-b6.57798/

Very interesting, thanks for the links. 2 months ago the AP was measured and was good. But I will keep an eye on that.
In that thread someone says that the spleen is connected to it as well. I find that interesting because every time I go to the acupuncturist he mentions that the spleen is not working optimally.

Absorption of B6 is complicated, involving phosphorylation and dephosphorylation, oxidation and reduction, amination and deamination, all primarily taking place in the jejunum and ileum portions of the small intestine. So any type of malabsorption or microbiome dysbiosis can also cause issues.

ALP, vitamins B2, B3, molybdenum, zinc and magnesium are all needed to absorb and utilize vitamin B6.

Thanks a lot, I will look into those. A too high serum b6 can lead to neurological symptoms, this is the reason that I try to find the reason, even though I know it's complicated and many things are involved.

 

[JES]

Thanks a lot, I will look into those. A too high serum b6 can lead to neurological symptoms, this is the reason that I try to find the reason, even though I know it's complicated and many things are involved.

I reckon neurological symptoms is only a concern if supplementing with a high dosage of B6 and even then the problem can be avoided by using the more active form (P-5-P), at least according to the sources I have read.

I curiously also tested for outside of normal threshold serum B6 readings without any supplementation whatsoever. There was a study showing that children with autism have high B6, which highlighted issues with pyridoxal kinase and also noted low P-5-P levels. Based on several anecdotal reports in this forum, the same might be true for ME/CFS.

 

[percyval577]

That's very interesting Percy!
Never knew that metals were cofactors. Do you know some sources to read more about this?

Do you take the Vitamin B12 in the morning? Recently my b12 dropped badly and MMA increased a lot = shortage of B12.

Hallo Jason,

I was interested in some ultra trace metals. I had googled they would be high in some special brain structures. But later it turned out that the date are controversial, some I even couldn´t find back again.
Then I could find only few investigations - if any - in tasks for the metals I am interested in, silver, nickel, aluminium, chromium, and zinc (well zinc has been looked at quite detailed).
Each of these metals I have tested last autumn (sticking better to chocolate now) and they work for me, but I do hardly know why. [wikipedia.Cofactor]

So I stay vague when I guess some metals (maybe in cocoa) might help with vit B6.
And Vit B6 has been looked at relatively well, so it might have come already in consideration? Vit B1 I think is less investigated.
But I think cocoa would be easy to test. I bought pure cocoa (for baking) avoiding any sugar if I want so.

B12 (cyano) I put into water and drink from the water whenever I think it will help. I started it only this year. The effect mostly doesn´t last for long, but during spring it was quite a help. I can do to much. Sometimes I take a bottle with me (even different ones with different stuff) when leaving my flat.

 

[SherDa]

Hi all,

A regular blood test by the doc showed high vitamin B1 and vitamin B6.
I don't take a Vitamin B complex or any other supplement with vitamin B1 or vitamin B6 in it.

I didn't tested the active versions of B1 and B6, but I am guessing that I am deficient in one of the cofactors which blocks it from converting it to the active form.

I do know that they both need magnesium to get activated. I am taking mag glycinate.
But I wonder what the other cofactors of B1 and B6 are, does anybody know these?

The main active form of B1 is thiamine pyrophosphatase. The enzyme driving this conversion is called TPP synthetase. There are 2 substrates for this reaction - thiamine and ATP. I don't see any cofactors for this, but you may wish to explore further.

The main active form of B6 is pyridoxal-5-phosphate. B6 is converted to PMP by the enzyme pyridoxal kinase. This enzyme also requires ATP as a substrate alongside B6. It also requires zinc to be fully active. PMP is then converted to P5P by the enzyme pyridoxine 5-phosphate oxidase. A coenzyme for this enzyme is FMN, which is the active form of vitamin B2 (converted by the riboflavin kinase enzyme, which also requires ATP as a substrate). Another enzyme that converts PMP to P5P is pyridoxine 5′-phosphate oxidase, which requires water and diatomic oxygen as substrates. B6 is pretty important. It has over 100 known functions, but I'm not sure which of these enzymes may be more dominant in human metabolism.

I've seen the sentiment expressed that B2 is the B vitamin that is most needed for the proper metabolism of other B vitamins, but I certainly don't have sufficient biochemistry knowledge to confirm that. I think the active form of B3 is needed to excrete B6 (not sure about that though).

So you're correct that magnesium is required, since it forms a complex with ATP, but other than that, I don't see much besides zinc and B2. You might want to read about zinc and B2 signs of deficiency to see if you would suspect you have a deficiency in either of those.

I should do my homework now.

 

[Learner1]

Recently my b12 dropped badly and MMA increased a lot = shortage of B12.

That is a clue!