High Dose Vitamin C Mystery

[Dysfunkion]

Until recently I was only using a couple grams of vitamin C in the morning, it gave me a little energy but nothing more and I am far worse without it in all areas. I never though to go higher because if I'm taking that already I didn't think I would get anything at all from adding more. Until one day I just decided to go for it and took a couple grams at 3 PM one day, I immediately got more relaxed but more functional cognitively and my senses became much clearer. So I kept at this and the effects stuck so as long as I kept on this dosing schedule. 2 grams in the 2 grams 3-3:30 PM usually.

Then I decided to try more and this is where things get weird. I tried 1 more gram at 9 PM and got more sensory clarity again but the late night dose induced a weird insomnia where I'd be able fall asleep but wouldn't be able to enter deeper sleep and would wake up much earlier feeling rather wired but clearer. Another thing I noticed is that with each higher dose my speech problems got somewhat better too.

This trend continued until eventually my body got used to the 9 PM 1 gram dose and the whole insomnia thing didn't happen anymore. I then decided to make one more push, to hit the full 2 gram 1/2 teaspoon at 9 PM. When I do this now expecting the insomnia thing to occur again and feeling more wired I actually just feel somewhat better and after some days at this 2-2-2 dosing schedule my senses are much clearer, I am much more functional, my voice tends to be better though not perfect, and I noticed my skin is clearer too.

An interesting note is if I'm having an immune reaction to something I will get the neurological effects I am prone to from it but my senses remain very clear. I'll get regressions in my vocal ability, a surge of typical reactionary neuropathy in my face/head, inflammation feeling behind forehead/sinus area, and brain fog with a reduced ability to concentrate. The fatigue though from all reactions is greatly lessened now but due to my extreme environmental sensitivities as it seems my body is allergic to life itself my cognitive ability is very prone to fluctuating every day and I still am unable to do things like drive.

My big question though is why does my body need such a ridiculous amount of vitamin C to function at this level of normalcy? I am over sensitive to everything and eating anything just makes my symptoms worse. I am down to a small handful of safe enough foods to eat consistently that don't produce too many symptoms and the rest is just entertainment with a side of variety now and then. Whether I'm at work, walking down the street, or in the forest I am having a reaction immune wise to just about everything to some degree to manage save for sitting still at home in a largely fasted state. But mysteriously my body apparently needs a combination of at a baseline this extremely high dose vitamin C now, methyl-b12 2000 mcg, and life becomes impossible if I put the coffee down (not exaggerating, even past physical withdrawals it like the B12 just starts to shut down on me and more food only makes me sicker). I honestly don't know what to do anymore, I'm only on mild island as long as I keep this up, do nothing with myself (all of my hobbies unfortunately cause symptom flares to deal with from reading to hiking), and I can't get rid of my environmental sensitivities it seems no matter what.

 

[Gijs]

Vitamin C has several functions in the body: Vitamin C protects your body cells from damage as an antioxidant. Vitamin C plays a role in the formation of connective tissue. Vitamin C contributes to the absorption of iron. I think that especially the absorption of iron to which oxygen is bound provides more clarity and energy. Many ME patients benefit from vitamin C. For high intake of vitamins it is wise to discuss this with a doctor.

 

[pamojja]

My big question though is why does my body need such a ridiculous amount of vitamin C to function at this level of normalcy?

Bio-chemical individuality. About which Linus Paul had a whale chapter in his old book 'How to live healthier and feel better'.

Due to that, my effects of high dose differed from yours, as I wrote in a post about my main remission 7 years ago:

Things that I started on faith and showed noticeable effects (updated):

• Vitamin C - after a PAD diagnosis almost 9 years ago, together with lysine and all other nutrients recommended by Linus Pauling - pain-free walking distance improved from mere 3-400 meters up to 2 hours. But only once I exceeded the in his view minimal therapeutic dose of 6 g/d each. Side-benefits: a since 2 years persistent skin-rush cleared up, hay-fever symptoms recurring every spring since 15 years got alleviated. HbA1c stayed disproportionally low, compared to higher blood glucose. A cystitis circumscripta of the bladder disappeared. Truly addictive stuff for someone with my health-issues. Only negative side-effect: flatulence.

Vitamin C contributes to the absorption of iron.

Not in my case. Ferritin remained through all those 16 years between 40 and 92 ng/ml with no correlation to intake. While the only Ferritin from 2 years before starting to supplement was at 342 ng/dl.

But when comparing my whole water-soluble vitamin intake during all those years, I do see the strongest correlation of higher vitamin C intake with major remissions - or worsenings. The former explainable through higher blood levels, the latter by higher intake through felt worsening.



The first column with lighter or reddish coloration indicates major changes:

• 2009 diagnosis of PAD with painfree walking distance down to 300-400 meters.
• 2010-11 gradual improvement to 1 and 2 hours painfree walking.
• 2012 chronic bronchitis for the whole year. Thereby diminishing walking distance to below 1 hr again. After diagnosis of COPD stage 1, but asymptomatic since.
• 2015 remission of walking disability.
• 2018 remission of post-exertional malaise (otherwise the main symptom of ME/CFS)
• 2021 corona circumstances worsened walking distance partially again. Fluctuating.
• End of 2024, major joints alternatingly in strong pain. (3 months of ultra-sounds, x-ray or MRI only found a lesion in a meniscus. Self-diagnosis with experimental 200 mg/d of hydroxychloroquine indicates rather rheumatoid arthritis.

Vitamin C protects your body cells from damage as an antioxidant.

Only had rare oxidized LDL tests:

2012 - 66
2016 - 114
2018 - 117
2020 - 44
(20-179 ug/l normal, <60 optimal range)

No real correlation with main remissions (or inflammation). Though sun-bathing-wise, 2020 was the most exceptional, in India (7 weeks) and at home with the most sunshine hours since (150 sunny days at my old Rhine beach). Ox-LDL test was taken at the end of that year. Then came the disruption by corona mismanagements.

The therapeutic effects also differ vastly with even higher intakes, as when practicing titrating to bowel-tolerance:

TABLE I - USUAL BOWEL TOLERANCE DOSES

GRAMS ASCORBIC ACID      NUMBER OF DOSES     
CONDITION                  PER 24 HOURS           PER 24 HOURS
normal                       4 -  15              4 -  6
mild cold                   30 -  60              6 - 10
severe cold                 60 - 100+             8 - 15
influenza                  100 - 150              8 - 20
ECHO, coxsackievirus       100 - 150              8 - 20
mononucleosis              150 - 200+            12 - 25
viral pneumonia            100 - 200+            12 - 25
hay fever, asthma           15 -  50              4 -  8
environmental and                                       
 food allergy              0.5 -  50              4 -  8
burn, injury, surgery       25 - 150+             6 - 20
anxiety, exercise and                                   
 other mild stresses        15 -  25              4 -  6
cancer                      15 - 100              4 - 15
ankylosing spondylitis      15 - 100              4 - 15
Reiter's syndrome           15 -  60              4 - 10
acute anterior uveitis      30 - 100              4 - 15
rheumatoid arthritis        15 - 100              4 - 15
bacterial infections        30 - 200+            10 - 25
infectious hepatitis        30 - 100              6 - 15
candidiasis                 15 - 200+             6 - 25

The problem for me titrating was and is, exactly because of rhinitis already without symptoms, my bowel-tolerance normally is already at 50 g/d. That are terrible high doses taken throughout the day. This necessitates too many liters of water to gulp so many doses down. With bad repercussions on constantly disrupted sleep by nocturia.

Therefore, I couldn't keep up too long with real titrating. Actually only once, and had enough of it.

For high intake of vitamins it is wise to discuss this with a doctor.

Funnily, my GP had experimented with ascorbate infusions and terminal cancer patients at the start of his career. Never warned about, because I was the only of his patients asking for also exotic lab-tests in regular monitoring, for possible negative effects.

Asked why he quit infusions, he replied, because he couldn't see the prolonged suffering with terminal patients anymore..

 

[Dysfunkion]

Bio-chemical individuality. About which Linus Paul had a whale chapter in his old book 'How to live healthier and feel better'.

Due to that, my effects of high dose differed from yours, as I wrote in a post about my main remission 7 years ago:



Not in my case. Ferritin remained through all those 16 years between 40 and 92 ng/ml with no correlation to intake. While the only Ferritin from 2 years before starting to supplement was at 342 ng/dl.

But when comparing my whole water-soluble vitamin intake during all those years, I do see the strongest correlation of higher vitamin C intake with major remissions - or worsenings. The former explainable through higher blood levels, the latter by higher intake through felt worsening.

View attachment 55414

The first column with lighter or reddish coloration indicates major changes:

• 2009 diagnosis of PAD with painfree walking distance down to 300-400 meters.
• 2010-11 gradual improvement to 1 and 2 hours painfree walking.
• 2012 chronic bronchitis for the whole year. Thereby diminishing walking distance to below 1 hr again. After diagnosis of COPD stage 1, but asymptomatic since.
• 2015 remission of walking disability.
• 2018 remission of post-exertional malaise (otherwise the main symptom of ME/CFS)
• 2021 corona circumstances worsened walking distance partially again. Fluctuating.
• End of 2024, major joints alternatingly in strong pain. (3 months of ultra-sounds, x-ray or MRI only found a lesion in a meniscus. Self-diagnosis with experimental 200 mg/d of hydroxychloroquine indicates rather rheumatoid arthritis.

Only had rare oxidized LDL tests:

2012 - 66
2016 - 114
2018 - 117
2020 - 44
(20-179 ug/l normal, <60 optimal range)

No real correlation with main remissions (or inflammation). Though sun-bathing-wise, 2020 was the most exceptional, in India (7 weeks) and at home with the most sunshine hours since (150 sunny days at my old Rhine beach). Ox-LDL test was taken at the end of that year. Then came the disruption by corona mismanagements.

The therapeutic effects also differ vastly with even higher intakes, as when practicing titrating to bowel-tolerance:

TABLE I - USUAL BOWEL TOLERANCE DOSES

GRAMS ASCORBIC ACID      NUMBER OF DOSES    
CONDITION                  PER 24 HOURS           PER 24 HOURS
normal                       4 -  15              4 -  6
mild cold                   30 -  60              6 - 10
severe cold                 60 - 100+             8 - 15
influenza                  100 - 150              8 - 20
ECHO, coxsackievirus       100 - 150              8 - 20
mononucleosis              150 - 200+            12 - 25
viral pneumonia            100 - 200+            12 - 25
hay fever, asthma           15 -  50              4 -  8
environmental and                                      
 food allergy              0.5 -  50              4 -  8
burn, injury, surgery       25 - 150+             6 - 20
anxiety, exercise and                                  
 other mild stresses        15 -  25              4 -  6
cancer                      15 - 100              4 - 15
ankylosing spondylitis      15 - 100              4 - 15
Reiter's syndrome           15 -  60              4 - 10
acute anterior uveitis      30 - 100              4 - 15
rheumatoid arthritis        15 - 100              4 - 15
bacterial infections        30 - 200+            10 - 25
infectious hepatitis        30 - 100              6 - 15
candidiasis                 15 - 200+             6 - 25

The problem for me titrating was and is, exactly because of rhinitis already without symptoms, my bowel-tolerance normally is already at 50 g/d. That are terrible high doses taken throughout the day. This necessitates too many liters of water to gulp so many doses down. With bad repercussions on constantly disrupted sleep by nocturia.

Therefore, I couldn't keep up too long with real titrating. Actually only once, and had enough of it.


Funnily, my GP had experimented with ascorbate infusions and terminal cancer patients at the start of his career. Never warned about, because I was the only of his patients asking for also exotic lab-tests in regular monitoring, for possible negative effects.

Asked why he quit infusions, he replied, because he couldn't see the prolonged suffering with terminal patients anymore..

Wow thanks for the lengthy response! I will read into that longevity topic too. I think for now I'm going to stick with the 2-2-2 dosing schedule and see where this goes over the next couple months.

Last night an hour after the last one I had a small pinch that couldn't have been more than half a gram and if I push it at all even slightly out of dosing schedule no matter how much it is my body doesn't seem to like that much. Had the weird insomnia and wired feeling in the morning again with kind of a funk in general mentally though ironically up front my anxiety is less and my senses are clearer/brain is less "noisy" if that makes enough sense. Digestive system also wasn't too thrilled about it. So that is interesting that dose frequency and pattern seems to matter in my case much more than dose size. It has made me up front a bit less reactive to food but not eliminated any sensitivities. As soon as the C hits my guts it seems to get right to work.

 

[Aidan Walsh]

Until recently I was only using a couple grams of vitamin C in the morning, it gave me a little energy but nothing more and I am far worse without it in all areas. I never though to go higher because if I'm taking that already I didn't think I would get anything at all from adding more. Until one day I just decided to go for it and took a couple grams at 3 PM one day, I immediately got more relaxed but more functional cognitively and my senses became much clearer. So I kept at this and the effects stuck so as long as I kept on this dosing schedule. 2 grams in the 2 grams 3-3:30 PM usually.

Then I decided to try more and this is where things get weird. I tried 1 more gram at 9 PM and got more sensory clarity again but the late night dose induced a weird insomnia where I'd be able fall asleep but wouldn't be able to enter deeper sleep and would wake up much earlier feeling rather wired but clearer. Another thing I noticed is that with each higher dose my speech problems got somewhat better too.

This trend continued until eventually my body got used to the 9 PM 1 gram dose and the whole insomnia thing didn't happen anymore. I then decided to make one more push, to hit the full 2 gram 1/2 teaspoon at 9 PM. When I do this now expecting the insomnia thing to occur again and feeling more wired I actually just feel somewhat better and after some days at this 2-2-2 dosing schedule my senses are much clearer, I am much more functional, my voice tends to be better though not perfect, and I noticed my skin is clearer too.

An interesting note is if I'm having an immune reaction to something I will get the neurological effects I am prone to from it but my senses remain very clear. I'll get regressions in my vocal ability, a surge of typical reactionary neuropathy in my face/head, inflammation feeling behind forehead/sinus area, and brain fog with a reduced ability to concentrate. The fatigue though from all reactions is greatly lessened now but due to my extreme environmental sensitivities as it seems my body is allergic to life itself my cognitive ability is very prone to fluctuating every day and I still am unable to do things like drive.

My big question though is why does my body need such a ridiculous amount of vitamin C to function at this level of normalcy? I am over sensitive to everything and eating anything just makes my symptoms worse. I am down to a small handful of safe enough foods to eat consistently that don't produce too many symptoms and the rest is just entertainment with a side of variety now and then. Whether I'm at work, walking down the street, or in the forest I am having a reaction immune wise to just about everything to some degree to manage save for sitting still at home in a largely fasted state. But mysteriously my body apparently needs a combination of at a baseline this extremely high dose vitamin C now, methyl-b12 2000 mcg, and life becomes impossible if I put the coffee down (not exaggerating, even past physical withdrawals it like the B12 just starts to shut down on me and more food only makes me sicker). I honestly don't know what to do anymore, I'm only on mild island as long as I keep this up, do nothing with myself (all of my hobbies unfortunately cause symptom flares to deal with from reading to hiking), and I can't get rid of my environmental sensitivities it seems no matter what.

Vitamin C helps if you have D-Lactate Acidosis so this may be a reason for feeling any better. I am not sure what C dose is needed in D.L. Avenger on here did a post on D. Lactate Acidosis

 

[Dysfunkion]

Vitamin C helps if you have D-Lactate Acidosis so this may be a reason for feeling any better. I am not sure what C dose is needed in D.L. Avenger on here did a post on D. Lactate Acidosis

Im looking into these posts now and seeing if I can connect any dots, possibly what I have been doing to keep myself is actually based on suppression of D-lactate.

 

[Wayne]

Many years ago I read the story of Dr. Frederick Klenner, a rural country doctor from North Carolina who in the 1940's discovered that IV Vitamin C cures polio. He submitted a medical paper that was published at the time outlining how 60 of 60 of his young polio patients (some quite advanced) all rapidly recovered from polio using his IV Vit. C therapy.

He eventually discovered he got very similar results treating common childhood diseases like measles and whooping with the same therapy. After extensive experience with his successful treatment, he got into the habit of as soon as a mother showed up with her child with a health issue, before even beginning to hear about the health problems, he would hook the child up with IV Vit. C.

He said in almost all cases, the child would begin to improve within minutes after the hookup right before his eyes, and usually occurred while the mother was describing what was all going on. -- I've long thought (as I believe Linus Pauling did) that this simple therapy should be at the forefront of modern medical treatment. I think it would have worked miracles during the COVID crisis.

I've taken a lot of Vitamin C over years, and have always felt it gave me extra energy. About a year ago I began experimenting with putting sodium ascorbate in my coffee enema solution. The results were immediately noticeable (and significant). My boost in energy and mental clarity was also consistent. I now put 10 grams into my coffee solution on a daily basis.

I also make a "Vitamin C paste", which is essentially mixing a sodium ascorbate with water (or lotion) and applying it topically. This can be done for skin issues, but also to get extra absorption of Vitamin C into the body without having to take it orally.

I've come to believe rectal infusions of Vitamin C is perhaps roughly half as effective as IV Vitamin C, and probably more effective than oral Vitamin C, especially since a person doesn't necessarily have to be constrained by bowel tolerance. Topical Vit. C might also be a way to get around bowel tolerance issues.

I'm happy to see this thread on Vitamin C, and some of the responses so far. I've long thought it's been an overlooked therapy with much potential. Unfortunately, as soon as the topic comes up, and the name of Linus Pauling is brought into the discussion, naysayers who listen to mainstream medicine can easily get all up in arms. So I shy away from the topic. Perhaps I'm feeling a bit courageous this morning.

 

[hapl808]

I was only using a couple grams of vitamin C in the morning

What form(s) of vitamin C have you used and found most helpful?

I definitely notice some improvements, but I usually take just 1g per day or maybe 2g. Ascorbic acid works well, but can be hard on my stomach. I have a NOW liposomal C, but can't tell if it does anything - maybe I need to take higher amounts than the ascorbic acid one (or maybe target different symptoms).

 

[linusbert]

vitamin c is required among other things to make l-carnitine. shortage of vitamin c for whatever reason will most probably make shortage in l-carnitine, and l-carnitine is crucial in energy metabolism. especially fats but what improves fat metabolism also improves carb metabolism. carnitine is a shuttle of long chain fatty acids into the mitochondria, but it does not only bring stuff in, it also brings waste out of the cell again! so with too less carnitine bad fatty acid waste products could accumulate in cells and block metabolism.
so you might wanna try l-carnitine or better l-carnitine-fumarate and/or acetylcarnitine.
note, that l-carnitine(-fumarate) is a acetylgroup buffer , so if you got too many acetylgroups it buffers those.. if you got too less you would profit of acetylcarnitine (or get worse if you got too much). thats why one form of carnitine might be good for some and bad for others , where as the other is good for those now. try all and see if one works.

but vitamin c isnt the only cofactor for carnitine, iron is too! and b6 and b3 and methionine.

and methionine is also important part of methylation as methylgroup donor, you have effects in that pathway too.

 

[pamojja]

Unfortunately, as soon as the topic comes up, and the name of Linus Pauling is brought into the discussion, naysayers who listen to mainstream medicine can easily get all up in arms. So I shy away from the topic. Perhaps I'm feeling a bit courageous this morning.

I just can't, but, be honest.

With PAD, COPD, T2D, post-exertional malaise, cystitis, NAFLD, retinal migraines, rhinitis, stroke etc. diagnoses, I would be now on at least 12 medications, additional to risky surgery. As usual with chronic diseases, all potentially slowing down disease progression. But in no way affecting remissions, and then so many. A true 'nothing more to lose' situation. And glad I had the foresightedness:

None of these dozen medications have been studied beyond the usual 5 years, or even months in the exact combination. So after 5 years any well studied medication is just as without any evidence, as high-dose vitamin C from the onset. In my case now for more than 16 years without bad effects. But with so many medications, almost certain bad side effects.

However, I see little chance for being widely adopted. The biggest effort with comprehensive life-style changes and supplementation (beside being not adoptable with moderate to severe ME/CFS) is in self-education. And most chronic disease patent shy away from such efforts and self-responsibility, prefer to trust their doctor (with only minimal education or experience in nutrition), and prefer to take 12 pills/d instead.

Actually, I do take regular LDN too. Also, the effort to regular monitor lab-result, I from my experience without real health professional, I find very important.

 

[pamojja]

I have a NOW liposomal C, but can't tell if it does anything

According to a study by Dr. Levy himself (an advisor to Livon-Labs), white blood cell intracellular ascorbate increased 150% in the area-under-the curve only, with liposomal compared to regular sodium ascorbate. So in my eyes not really justifying the many times higher price, compared to regular Vitamin C.

In clinical experience, liposomal has seen more effective with infections, though.

 

[Aidan Walsh]

Im looking into these posts now and seeing if I can connect any dots, possibly what I have been doing to keep myself is actually based on suppression of D-lactate.

I noticed on one of my gene results I have a mutation for Vitamin K Rickets, not sure what this means yet maybe not metabolising this now. I have the gene for AML maturation, one mutation for the TP53 Li-Fraumeni Cancer family hereditary gene.It can also come with WASF3/WASF Wilkott Aldrich Syndrome.

 

[pamojja]

Vitamin C helps if you have D-Lactate Acidosis so this may be a reason for feeling any better. I am not sure what C dose is needed in D.L. Avenger on here did a post on D. Lactate Acidosis

Huh, a too long thread to read it all now. If you find the connection to vitamin C again, please post.

Until recently, known basic functions of vitamin C (from a textbook):

Vitamin C Basic Functions​

• Collagen synthesis. Vitamin C is an essential coenzyme in collagen synthesis. Cofactor in the hydroxylation of lysine and proline, stimulation of gene-expression in fibroblasts; development, maturation and repair of connective tissue such as skin, bone, tendons ligaments, scar tissue, blood vessels and cartilage (anti-scurvy effect = ascorbic). Lack of ascorbic acid results in poorly formed connective tissue in the skin, joints, muscles, and bones.
• Hormone production. Glucocorticoids synthesis in adrenal cortex (stress-response), and Vitamin D-hormone (calcitriol synthesis). Production of epinephrine and norepinephrine, (the hormones released by the adrenal gland in response to stress) are dependent on adequate vitamin C status.
• Neurotransmitter metabolism. Ascorbic acid is essential for the production of norepinephrine and serotonin, two important neurotransmitters in the brain. Conversion of tryptophan in 5-hydrotryptophan (=precursor of serotonin), hydroxylation of dopamine into noradrenalin, synthesis of L-dopa.
• Amidation of neuro-endocrinic hormones. Gastrin, CRH (corticotropin-releasing- hormone and TRH (tyreotropin-releasing-hormone).
• Bile acid synthesis and cholesterol breakdown and excretion. The first key step in the degradation of cholesterol (also tyrosine; bile-acid-synthesis, cholesterol-7-hydroxylasis, HMG-CoA-recductasis) depends on vitamin C. Cholesterol levels in the liver and blood increase if vitamin C status is impaired.
• Carnitine synthesis. Ascorbic acid - together with cofactors niacin, vitamin B6, lysine and methione - is essential for the formation of carnitine, an amino acid required for breakdown of fats for energy. Lack of ascorbic acid lowers levels of carnitine and reduces energy production, producing fatigue and muscle weakness.
• Tyrosine metabolism. Synthesis and catabolism.
• Iron absorbtion and metabolism. Vitamin C sharply increases non-heme iron absorption from diet or supplements. Raising iron transference from transferritin (transport protein) to ferritin (storage protein)-
• Folic acid activation. To tetrahydrofolate (THF).
• Antioxidant function. Vitamin C is the body’s primary water-soluble antioxidant. It is present in the blood, body fluids, and inside all cells and helps protect against oxidative damage by free radicals of lipids (lipid-peroxidation), proteins, nucleic acid and cell membranes. (anti-inflammatory and anti-degenerative effects, e.g. in cancers, diabetes, arthritis, cataracts and cardiovascular diseases..). Vitamin C is also important in the conversion (reduction) of iron and copper to the form in which they function as cofactors in many enzyme systems, such as reduced copper in superoxide dismutase (another antioxidant).
• Antioxidant regeneration. Central building-block in the redox-chain of vitamin C, vitamin E, coenzym Q10 and lipoic acid and/or glutathione, Regeneration of glutathion-disulfide into glutathione.
• Vitamin E sparing effect. Regeneration of tocopherol radicals (vitamin E radical) into the reduced, anti-oxidative active alpha-tocopherol (vitamin E).
• Protection of folate and vitamin E from oxidation. Ascorbic acid protects folate and vitamin E from oxidation and helps maintain these vitamins in their active forms.
• Endothelial cell protection. Raising of NO-bioavailability. (anti thrombotic and blood-lowering effect)
• Detoxification and excretion of drugs and chemicals. Ascorbic acid helps maintain the enzyme systems in the liver that detoxify and excrete drugs and toxic environmental chemicals (such as pesticides and heavy metals). Detoxification of xenobiotika (synthesis/anti-oxidative protection of CYP 450) in the liver, excretion of toxins.
• Antiviral and antibacterial effect. Vitamin C is important for healthy immune function. It is essential for optimum activity of white blood cells and production of the chemical mediators that direct the immune response. Lack of vitamin C sharply increases vulnerability to infection (Immunocompetence). Stimulation of the cellular (antibodies) and hormonal immune system (interferon), protection of phagocytic membranes from oxidative self-destruction (prolonged function-time of immune cells), activation of complementary systems and of chemotaxis.
• Anti.glycation. Inhibition of protein glycosylation and AGE-formation. (e.g. HbA1C).
• Anti-allergic. Vitamin C plays a role in controlling body and blood histamine levels (histamine degradation and mast cell stabilization), and blood histamine levels increase when vitamin C status is poor. High levels of histamine can aggravate allergies, asthma, stomach ulcers, and certain psychiatric disorders.
• Anti-carcinogenic. Inhibition of the formation of carcinogenic nitrosamines from nitrites and secondary amins (especially of the digestive system), protection of DNA from oxidative damage.

 

[Dysfunkion]

Many years ago I read the story of Dr. Frederick Klenner, a rural country doctor from North Carolina who in the 1940's discovered that IV Vitamin C cures polio. He submitted a medical paper that was published at the time outlining how 60 of 60 of his young polio patients (some quite advanced) all rapidly recovered from polio using his IV Vit. C therapy.

He eventually discovered he got very similar results treating common childhood diseases like measles and whooping with the same therapy. After extensive experience with his successful treatment, he got into the habit of as soon as a mother showed up with her child with a health issue, before even beginning to hear about the health problems, he would hook the child up with IV Vit. C.

He said in almost all cases, the child would begin to improve within minutes after the hookup right before his eyes, and usually occurred while the mother was describing what was all going on. -- I've long thought (as I believe Linus Pauling did) that this simple therapy should be at the forefront of modern medical treatment. I think it would have worked miracles during the COVID crisis.

I've taken a lot of Vitamin C over years, and have always felt it gave me extra energy. About a year ago I began experimenting with putting sodium ascorbate in my coffee enema solution. The results were immediately noticeable (and significant). My boost in energy and mental clarity was also consistent. I now put 10 grams into my coffee solution on a daily basis.

I also make a "Vitamin C paste", which is essentially mixing a sodium ascorbate with water (or lotion) and applying it topically. This can be done for skin issues, but also to get extra absorption of Vitamin C into the body without having to take it orally.

I've come to believe rectal infusions of Vitamin C is perhaps roughly half as effective as IV Vitamin C, and probably more effective than oral Vitamin C, especially since a person doesn't necessarily have to be constrained by bowel tolerance. Topical Vit. C might also be a way to get around bowel tolerance issues.

I'm happy to see this thread on Vitamin C, and some of the responses so far. I've long thought it's been an overlooked therapy with much potential. Unfortunately, as soon as the topic comes up, and the name of Linus Pauling is brought into the discussion, naysayers who listen to mainstream medicine can easily get all up in arms. So I shy away from the topic. Perhaps I'm feeling a bit courageous this morning.

Well I like that something so simple was right in front of my face the entire time. Enemas are the one thing I've been shying away from even though I do want to try it and add sodium ascorbate to the infusion. I just fear of something going horribly wrong and stirring up something bad in there without actually killing it and getting a huge regression.

What form(s) of vitamin C have you used and found most helpful?

I definitely notice some improvements, but I usually take just 1g per day or maybe 2g. Ascorbic acid works well, but can be hard on my stomach. I have a NOW liposomal C, but can't tell if it does anything - maybe I need to take higher amounts than the ascorbic acid one (or maybe target different symptoms).

Im using the basic Pure ascorbic acid powder, nothing special. I've never tried liposomal before. You might need higher amounts, I didn't notice anything this drastic till I was over 4 grams.

vitamin c is required among other things to make l-carnitine. shortage of vitamin c for whatever reason will most probably make shortage in l-carnitine, and l-carnitine is crucial in energy metabolism. especially fats but what improves fat metabolism also improves carb metabolism. carnitine is a shuttle of long chain fatty acids into the mitochondria, but it does not only bring stuff in, it also brings waste out of the cell again! so with too less carnitine bad fatty acid waste products could accumulate in cells and block metabolism.
so you might wanna try l-carnitine or better l-carnitine-fumarate and/or acetylcarnitine.
note, that l-carnitine(-fumarate) is a acetylgroup buffer , so if you got too many acetylgroups it buffers those.. if you got too less you would profit of acetylcarnitine (or get worse if you got too much). thats why one form of carnitine might be good for some and bad for others , where as the other is good for those now. try all and see if one works.

but vitamin c isnt the only cofactor for carnitine, iron is too! and b6 and b3 and methionine.

and methionine is also important part of methylation as methylgroup donor, you have effects in that pathway too.

I cant remember specifically if carnitine did anything for me (likely any difference i noticed probably wasn't anything notable at the time if I csnt even remember) but I can give it a go again and see what it does now.

 

[Aidan Walsh]

Huh, a too long thread to read it all now. If you find the connection to vitamin C again, please post.

Until recently, known basic functions of vitamin C (from a textbook):

keep in mind on Vitamin C some say the Chinese biggest supplier globally, make ascorbic acid from black mold & the B12 Doctors use to inject is made from water sewage treatment centers Sludge

 

[linusbert]

keep in mind on Vitamin C some say the Chinese biggest supplier globally, make ascorbic acid from black mold & the B12 Doctors use to inject is made from water sewage treatment centers Sludge

whaaat? is this real?

 

[Wayne]

whaaat? is this real?

I just asked AI this very question and got the following:

There is some truth to these claims, but they require clarification and context:

Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) Production​

The claim about vitamin C production has some basis in fact:

• Mass-produced citric acid and ascorbic acid (vitamin C) have been derived from the fermentation of starches by the black mold Aspergillus niger since the early 1900s1.
• This process uses genetically modified strains of Aspergillus niger grown on GMO corn syrup to produce citric acid1.

However, it's important to note that:

• Not all vitamin C is produced this way. Some manufacturers use alternative methods.
• The final product is purified and does not contain the mold itself.

Vitamin B12 Production​

The claim about vitamin B12 production from sewage sludge is partially true:

• A patent exists for a process of preparing a vitamin B12-active product from sewage sludge3.
• This process involves extracting a water-soluble fraction from dried activated sludge, which is a byproduct of municipal sewage treatment3.

However:

• This is not the only method for producing vitamin B12.
• Modern pharmaceutical-grade vitamin B12 is typically produced through fermentation processes using specific bacteria, not directly from sewage sludge.

Safety Considerations​

While these production methods may sound concerning, it's important to understand:

1. Regulatory oversight: The FDA and other regulatory bodies monitor the safety of food additives and supplements.
2. Purification processes: The final products undergo extensive purification to remove contaminants.
3. Alternative sources: Not all vitamins are produced using these methods. Many manufacturers use different production techniques.

It's always advisable to research the sources and manufacturing processes of supplements you consume, and consult with healthcare professionals if you have concerns about specific products.

 

[pamojja]

I just asked AI this very question and got the following:

I asked another, perplexity, with this answer:

Based on the search results, there is no direct evidence that ascorbic acid (vitamin C) is commonly made from black mold in China. The information about mold-based production primarily relates to citric acid, not ascorbic acid. However, there are some important points to consider regarding nutrients derived from mold and their potential health implications:

1. Citric Acid Production:
   • Approximately 99% of manufactured citric acid (MCA) is produced using Aspergillus niger, a type of black mold

• This process often involves genetically modified strains of A. niger and GMO corn syrup as a substrate.
• Health Concerns:
  • Aspergillus niger is a known allergen, and there are concerns about potential reactions to MCA
• The FDA categorizes MCA as "generally regarded as safe" (GRAS), but this classification was made without substantial research
• Some people report allergic reactions and food intolerances to citric acid, with symptoms including stomach pain, diarrhea, and hives
  • .
• Prevalence in Food Products:
  • Citric acid is widely used in processed foods, beverages, and even some organic products as a flavor enhancer and preservative
• Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C):
  • While the search results don't confirm mold-based production of ascorbic acid, one source mentions that mass-produced ascorbic acid may have "hidden GMO ingredients"
  • .
  • However, this claim is not substantiated by other sources in the search results.
• Regulatory Issues:
  • Despite concerns, regulatory bodies like the FDA continue to allow the use of MCA in food products
  • .
• Global Production:
  • China is now the largest producer of citric acid, controlling about 60% of the market

It's important to note that while citric acid production using black mold is well-documented, the same cannot be said for ascorbic acid based on these search results. More research would be needed to confirm or refute claims about ascorbic acid production methods in China.

For individuals concerned about potential health risks, it may be advisable to:

• Read ingredient labels carefully
• Choose whole, unprocessed foods when possible
• Consult with a healthcare professional if experiencing adverse reactions to foods containing these additives

With only source for the same in ascorbic acid: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/avoid-citric-acid-mold-byproduct-serge-gregoire - always check sources with AI, otherwise it could repeat rumors only.

Your AI response gives the same source, but calls this article as a fact.

So rather beware: of coke and donuts. Or anything processed by the food and beverage industry.

Ascorbic acid usually comes in 99.99% purity of its total molecules. So not much space for any mold or DNA. Guess It's like with past purity tests, who didn't find any plant DNA in plant-extracts they are from,

So I doubt one would find any more impurities in widely used citric acid. I get it for example from Magnesium or potassium citrate. Without allergic reactions.

One exemplary Certificate of Analysis of citric acid as attachment.

 

[Aidan Walsh]

I asked another, perplexity, with this answer:



With only source for the same in ascorbic acid: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/avoid-citric-acid-mold-byproduct-serge-gregoire - always check sources with AI, otherwise it could repeat rumors only.

Your AI response gives the same source, but calls this article as a fact.

So rather beware: of coke and donuts. Or anything processed by the food and beverage industry.

Ascorbic acid usually comes in 99.99% purity of its total molecules. So not much space for any mold or DNA. Guess It's like with past purity tests, who didn't find any plant DNA in plant-extracts they are from,

So I doubt one would find any more impurities in widely used citric acid. I get it for example from Magnesium or potassium citrate. Without allergic reactions.

One exemplary Certificate of Analysis of citric acid as attachment.

Just be cautious on purchases of these products, they also would protect the truth

 

[pamojja]

Just be cautious on purchases of these products, they also would protect the truth

When starting to supplement, I asked in my local pharmacy why I should buy their ascorbic acid powder, if I can get the same Chinese made product 3 times cheaper elsewhere. To my shock, they only test baches on purity, but not impurities. I see no reason not to prefer a faked COA, compared to none.

Joking aside, as a consumer of potentially contaminate supplements in such large amounts (in total over 200 g/d for 16 years, including all vitamins, minerals, amino and fatty acids, plant powders and extracts), but moreover large amounts of Ayurvedic products included, definitely heavy metal contaminated (because no toxic-waste disposal there, and all groundwater and earth contaminated) I choose the route of regular lab testing.

Worsening makers would have me alerted. Improved makers, in my case of lipids, kidney, liver, nutrients, inflammation, oxidation, etc. placated. The more with improbable remissions.

But especially for Ayurvedic products, I choose additional heavy-metal testing with Hair tissue mineral analysis. At least for 8 consecutive years, after which it doubled in price for me. HTMA can't show stored metals, but those in circulation from ongoing Ayurvedic supplementation. The only real problem was for 2 years in above normal Uranium. Surprise, coincidently right after Fukushima.

We have sort of find strategies to counter all the poisons in earth, water, food and air. Nutrient supplementation can be one. The only regular processed food I still eat, is dark chocolate for its beneficial nutrients.

• Detoxification and excretion of drugs and chemicals. Ascorbic acid helps maintain the enzyme systems in the liver that detoxify and excrete drugs and toxic environmental chemicals (such as pesticides and heavy metals). Detoxification of xenobiotika (synthesis/anti-oxidative protection of CYP 450) in the liver, excretion of toxins.

Avoiding adding to those toxins by our life-style is an important other, for which I for example swore 38 years ago never to drive a private car again.

In the final analysis, civilization will lose, because each year poison accumulation increases. Ironically, I do see the cradle for future civilizations in India. Because of such fast reproduction, such vast toxic exposures - if there can be accidentally modified genome protecting from toxins - it will show up first there.