High dose vitamin B1 (thiamine)

[manoka]

Hello all,

Has anybody tried this:

http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?libid=19438&B1=EP121014

And what about high dose Thiamin diphosphate (TPP), also called thiamin pyrophosphate (TPP) or cocarboxylase, the active, coenzyme form of vitamin B-1, and/or Benfotiamine?

Reportedly one should be able to find out whether it works within about 3 days.

Cheers

manoka

 

[halcyon]

I just got some cocarboxylase. I don't think I'll try mega doses but we'll see if it does anything.

 

[manoka]

Thanks halcyon!

As cocarboxylase doesn´t need to be converted by the body, it should be absorbed a lot easier and more, i.e. it could very well be that it takes a lot less than 1500 mg to have the same effect as the synthetic preparation.
At http://www.raysahelian.com/thiamine.html I found this:
"…
Q. I've read that thiamine has to be converted to cocarboxylase in the body. My question is would thiamine supplements already in the cocarboxylase form and sub-lingual (let's say 25 mg) be as effective as a much larger dose (maybe 100 mg or more) of Thiamine HCI (hydrochloride) in a capsule? Swallowing the cap would be subject to stomach acid, but sub-lingual would be absorbed directly into the bloodstream would it not?
A. Yes, most likely the sublingual and cocarboxylase form would be more potent than thiamine hydrochloride in capsule form. However, as the benefits may perhaps be better, there is a potential that the side effects would be more pronounced. A high dose or quick absorption is not necessarily healthier. But each person and each medical condition being treated is different."

Please keep us posted about your experiences.

The only (mainly) vitamin B1 product with the active form I can find, is the one from Source Naturals. Do you use another?

 

[halcyon]

I haven't noticed anything groundbreaking but I've only been on it a few days. Definitely no negative effects so far. I am using the Source Naturals 25mg sublingual.

 

[dannybex]

I think the sublingual should work a lot better than other forms (except for injections, which are really pricey).

This study mentions that only 4.5 milligrams of regular oral thiamine is absorbed, even in healthy patients (Edit: but see study 2 posts below -- this one may be incorrect):

http://alcalc.oxfordjournals.org/content/40/2/155

"In normal subjects, the absorption of thiamine does not exceed 4.5 mg even when large doses of thiamine are administered orally…"

 

[dannybex]

Should note however that that's just one study -- don't know if it's true. Doesn't seem to make sense…

???

 

[dannybex]

Not true according to this study:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6904/12/4

"In conclusion, our study demonstrates that high blood levels of thiamine can be achieved rapidly with oral thiamine hydrochloride. Thiamine is absorbed by both an active and unsaturable passive transport mechanism up to 1500 mg."

 

[Rand56]

Not true according to this study:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6904/12/4

"In conclusion, our study demonstrates that high blood levels of thiamine can be achieved rapidly with oral thiamine hydrochloride. Thiamine is absorbed by both an active and unsaturable passive transport mechanism up to 1500 mg."

hi Danny

Who knows which study is more accurate, but I've been taking 1500 mg's of thiamine HCL lately. I tried it on it's own awhile back with no great effects, but I am seeing good progress when I couple the thiamine with riboflavin.

Edit: I need to add that I don't believe I have CFS/ME nor do I believe I have methylation issues. Been there, done that before with methylation supps. So..YMMV and anyone else's for that matter. I'm not saying for anyone to automatically jump up to taking 1500 mg's of thiamine HCL, although I had no issues ramping up to that amount quickly. Better sustained energy is what I'm noticing.

 

[Rand56]

@heapsreal
@adreno
@Hip

Do any of you guys know if allithiamine would still be good past it's expiration date? I recently went thru my "Mt Everest"<LOL> high stack of supps I've used in the past and I found some allithiamine. Exp. date on it is 05/14 and it has not been kept in a refridgerator. It's not a cheap supp and I still have about 2/3rd's of a bottle left. If any of you guys or anyone else for that matter doesn't know, that's cool. Thanks

 

[adreno]

@Rand56

It's probably good for another 10 years.

 

[Rand56]

@Rand56

It's probably good for another 10 years.

Very cool adreno. Good to know and my wallet thanks you too LOL. Thanks for answering

 

[dannybex]

hi Danny

Who knows which study is more accurate, but I've been taking 1500 mg's of thiamine HCL lately. I tried it on it's own awhile back with no great effects, but I am seeing good progress when I couple the thiamine with riboflavin.

That's important that you're taking riboflavin with it, as there is documented evidence that high-dose thiamine can deplete riboflavin. (From a book called "Nutrient Interactions".)

I've backed off on the thiamine I was taking -- and was recently taking the high-dose 500mgs/wmagnesium -- because my eyes were getting worse (dry, then watering, goopy, and extremely sensitive to light). Am trying to increase vitamin A as well, and possibly methylfolate/b12 to lower histamine levels.

p.s. I'm glad I"m not the only one with a Mt.Everest-high pile of supplements. I really need to get rid of at least half of them, if not more.

 

[manoka]

Thanks for all the inputs!
I have taken the thiamine as recommended in the article for the past two weeks - except that I´m not taking the tablets which include the magnesium. But I´m supplementing magnesium with the "Mezotrace, Calcium / Magnesium, Powdered Minerals".
So far I can´t notice a big difference - though possibly a slight improvement in my energy levels.
One thing I do notice is that after the first week my sleep has very much improved to a level, where I can call it almost normal (or rather: healthy) - meaning: from an average of 5 hours of irregular sleep, to an average of 7 hours of uninterrupted sleep.
Even though last night was again more like the previous unhealthy pattern.
To put all this into perspective, I must admit that I had better sleep and energy for days in a row before (since my sudden breakdown with CFS-like symptoms).
Still, I want to try the V1 tablets with the magnesium included as soon as possible.
BTW, there are ones from Source Naturals for a much lower cost than those mentioned in the article, and with the exact same composition.

I will keep you posted on my further developments.

 

[Rand56]

p.s. I'm glad I"m not the only one with a Mt.Everest-high pile of supplements. I really need to get rid of at least half of them, if not more.

LOL I think a lot of other people on here can relate to this! If we pooled all of our wasted money on supps, no doubt we could give Warren Buffett a run for his money...haha.

 

[Jammy88]

Hi,
I take 200-300 mg Allithiamine a day. It really makes the difference with my condition, as my legs where deeply involved from the beginning.

My CFS trigger is viral (unknown).

Best

 

[Gondwanaland]

as my legs where deeply involved from the beginning

Like beriberi?

 

[Jammy88]

Like beriberi?

I had all the typical demyelinating symptoms.. triggered by a (retro?)virus. I know that 'cuz the person I got it from had the same symptoms.

 

[presently_distant]

I've taken the source naturals sublingual cocarboxylase (coenzyme B1/thiamin) And took a bit too much the first day...5 of the tablets (figuring at 25mg per, I'd be within a reasonable dosage). There wasn't any other huge detrimental effect other than restless sleep...woke up what felt like every 20 minutes.

Without sufficient magnesium (I'm deficient, and I'd bet many others on here are) the enzymes thiamin (TPP) work through aren't nearly as effective. And maybe this accounts for why it's not as effective for some?

I hope the effect I receive from thiamin is more of a "start up" reaction than anything else and if it isn't maybe there's some way to mitigate it? Although maybe I REALLY just need to take half a tab sublingually instead of five, lol.

 

[manoka]

Thanks presently_distant!
At what time(s) of the day did you take them, did you take any magnesium with it, and if so what sort and how much?

 

[presently_distant]

I take 1 magnesium taurate (125mg per capsule) while taking one of the Source Naturals cocarboxylase sublinguals. what I do is crush up their sublinguals into a powder and put it on the bottom of my lip...it works much better and dissolves pretty fast. But I'm a bit unsure of the results. It isn't exactly a straight forward energetic feeling for me, but I know I definitely need it.