Help me figure out what's causing these cognitive & autonomic symptoms

SpinachHands

Senior Member
Messages
208
Location
United Kingdom
I've posted before but thought it would be useful to start a new thread with updated symptoms and what testing we've done already.


The summary is my partner has been experiencing a set of symptoms that come together, and though there are periods of them being worse than usual, overall they are always present, and the baseline of this has been worsening every day for months now. These symptoms are separate to their existing diagnoses. Their ME/long COVID has only been continuing to improve, they don't get PEM and they have more energy than they have in nearly two years. These symptoms were not present when their ME/long COVID was at its worst, and only started around mid last year.


The Big Symptoms:
- severe cognitive issues: difficulty thinking, concentrating, short term memory problems, every day this is getting worse (at the start of this year they old listen to audio books, now they can barely keep up with a five minute YouTube video, will often repeat the same question not recalling if they asked or what the answer was, can't remember what happened in the day by the evening)
- the above can have worse episodes of disorientation, confusion, not being able to answer or comprehend simple questions, can act "out of it" or like drunk/high, can become giddy/delirious
- intense feelings of pressure in the head, as though something is expanding in their head, generally felt all over, sometimes also in front with sinus pressure
- worsening blurry vision and double vision
- severe dizziness
- mood changes: uncharacteristic/unprompted anger, aggression, rage
- constant whole body feeling of "fizzing" or "sparkling" similar to pins and needles
- sudden weakness (distinct from fatigue, not related to energy but more an inability to move, sometimes becoming full paralysis, particularly in legs)


Other symptoms:
- sudden overheating
- sudden sweating or lack of sweating
- feeling hot when actually cool to touch
- stomach pain/churning
- feeling full early
- nausea, occasional vomiting
- eye pain
- neck pain/stiffness
- feeling of "loose throat", gagging or feeling of something in throat
- bulging veins accompanied by pain in lower arms
- vivid nightmares, and while awake feeling of things being "gross" or disgusting, similar to intrusive thoughts?
- frequent urge to urinate, feeling like bladder never empties fully, occasional pain when peeing

Worsened By:
- often the head pressure particularly is worse when lying fully flat
- all symptoms worse after eating/drinking
- usually worse after a bowl movement
- most medicines immediately made the above symptoms worse, and medicines that were fine for months eventually starting worsening these symptoms, now off all meds
- symptoms can be worst first thing in morning, can also be ok during day but then suddenly get bad at night


Unaffected By:
- activity/exertion, long periods of rest, small but frequent activity, or large activity doesn't seem to affect when the symptoms get bad
- diet, with the symptoms worsening from eating/drinking we tried all kinds of dietary modifications, some foods do seem to make these symptoms worse than others but we couldn't identify any pattern or common factor in these, and the symptoms are very distinct from their MCAS symptoms
- medicines/vitamins/supplements, none tried seem to have had a notable impact. The only potentials were amantadine, and a H2 blocker (nizatidine?), both of which initially seemed to possibly alleviate things but over time just ended up worsening the symptoms, losing all benefit


Tests & scans:
- all blood tests and panels for infection, inflammation, nutrition/vitamin deficiency, full blood counts, have come back clear, the only exceptions being a low white cell count, and a high ALP
- recently redone thyroid/hormone testing, all normal
- awaiting results of some more specific blood tests, and some 24hr urine collection tests
- head CT, head MRI with and without contrast, spine MRI without contrast, all clear
- eye check for papilledema all clear
- EEG clear
- ECG clear
- home blood pressure tests suggest frequent low diastolic blood pressure particularly, with occasional large sudden increases in BP
- abdominal ultrasound (investigating high ALP) clear


Doctors:
- we've spoken to neurologists, a neurosurgeon, a neuro-gastroenterologist, a gastroenterologist, an infectious disease specialist, an autonomic cardiologist, ME and long COVID specialists, an endocrinologist, a physiotherapist, a hypermobility and EDS specialist, and nobody has any clue what is happening!
- the gastros said it was odd for symptoms to worsen so immediately after eating, as food wouldn't have hit the digestive system yet, and it's odd that IVs and medicines also caused the same symptoms
- the ME/long COVID specialists said you'd expect cognitive symptoms to get worse/better in line with the fatigue & PEM symptoms if it was caused by that
- the neuros just kept defaulting to functional disorders, because all the scans and physical neurological exam was normal


Apologies for a lot of information, but we've been trying to figure this out for a year, and just keep hitting dead ends. It's getting worse every day, and it feels like we've tried every environmental, external change we can. If anyone has experienced anything like this, or has suggestions for where to look next, I would appreciate any ideas.
 
Messages
11
Hi @SpinachHands , I am a long hauler myself. I don't have a solution for your partner. I wanted to say that I do experience some of the same symptoms, but I do get PEM. The weakness feeling is very distinct, problems with eyesight, etc, low WBC and neutrophils, bladder pain. I do have reactivated infections. I have noticed that I experience improvement in the cardiovascular symptoms when my immune system is distracted or something else makes it work harder. For instance, when I travel to an area with airborne allergies, although I am more stuffy and sneezy, my brain fog improves, as well as my chest pain and fatigue. I have the same improvement when I catch a cold. Probably, we are dealing with some kind of immune-mediated dysautonomia.
 

Zebra

Senior Member
Messages
1,105
Location
Northern California
My educated guess:

Wide-spread Dysautonomia, secondary to Auto-Immune Encephalitis.

It is possible to have "MRI-negative" or MRI-normal" brain and spinal cord imaging.

Diagnosis requires same-day blood test and spinal tap, and sending off both samples for simultaneous anti-body testing.

I believe you are in the UK, right?

I know I've recently read journal articles coming from a UK hospital or health center specializing in "neuro-immunology" or "auto-immune disorders of the CNS".

If, after doing the research, this spectrum of illnesses reasonates with you and your partner, you are going to have to fight like hell to be properly tested.

What I'm experiencing here in the US is that neurologist's over the age of 30 are not able to keep up with the advances in this field, which has literally exploded in the past decade.

The old, limited model of AE is outdated, and we are now aware that AE is a wide spectrum of diseases with heterogenous presentations.
 

SpinachHands

Senior Member
Messages
208
Location
United Kingdom
Has the cardio or neuro explored if any of this resembles dysautonomia?
We already know that they have dysautonomia/pots, however afaik this wouldn't cause long term constant cognitive impairment, only episodic when your blood pressure drops, etc. I've been looking into it chronic low blood pressure could cause consistent issues like that, but where were measured it there's not enough reliable patterns- sometimes their symptoms are bad and their BP is fine, and vice versa
 

SpinachHands

Senior Member
Messages
208
Location
United Kingdom
My educated guess:

Wide-spread Dysautonomia, secondary to Auto-Immune Encephalitis.

It is possible to have "MRI-negative" or MRI-normal" brain and spinal cord imaging.

Diagnosis requires same-day blood test and spinal tap, and sending off both samples for simultaneous anti-body testing.

I believe you are in the UK, right?

I know I've recently read journal articles coming from a UK hospital or health center specializing in "neuro-immunology" or "auto-immune disorders of the CNS".

If, after doing the research, this spectrum of illnesses reasonates with you and your partner, you are going to have to fight like hell to be properly tested.

What I'm experiencing here in the US is that neurologist's over the age of 30 are not able to keep up with the advances in this field, which has literally exploded in the past decade.

The old, limited model of AE is outdated, and we are now aware that AE is a wide spectrum of diseases with heterogenous presentations.
I did actually bully neurology into investigating for autoimmune encephalitis, but the blood tests done while at the hospital were negative. Their ANA tests have always come back negative too, so as much as it seemed likely, I think autoimmune has been disproven unless there are things going on that a blood test would miss, but are still enough to cause significant severe symptoms
 

Zebra

Senior Member
Messages
1,105
Location
Northern California
If you feel you've ruled this out, great.

I will share 2 more facts with you, out of concern for your partner, and then I will shut my mouth. :)

1. ANA is NOT positive in auto-immune diseases against the central nervous system.

2. Blood/serum markers alone do NOT rule out autoimmune diseases against the CNS or inflammatory diseases of the CNS. Only an evaluation of the spinal fluid can do this.

Best of luck to you and your partner and I hope you find answers and solutions!
 

SpinachHands

Senior Member
Messages
208
Location
United Kingdom
If you feel you've ruled this out, great.

I will share 2 more facts with you, out of concern for your partner, and then I will shut my mouth. :)

1. ANA is NOT positive in auto-immune diseases against the central nervous system.

2. Blood/serum markers alone do NOT rule out autoimmune diseases against the CNS or inflammatory diseases of the CNS. Only an evaluation of the spinal fluid can do this.

Best of luck to you and your partner and I hope you find answers and solutions!
I wasn't aware of this- in terms of autoimmune diseases that target the nervous system, would this be disorders like Guillien Barre, acute autonomic ganglionopathy, etc? What kind of tests with a spinal tap should I possibly be looking at? Neurology offered one, but then retracted that offer when they couldn't see any signs of anything on the blood tests and scans.
Thank you!
 

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,906
Location
United Kingdom
You've really been struggling with this for quite some time, I feel for you.

Have you had her tested for b12 deficiency? My recent worsening in POTS / autonomic symptoms was probably due to this. I have taken b12 many times in the past without benefit but injections seemed to help.
Could it be responsible for the tingling feeling in the limbs?
 

SpinachHands

Senior Member
Messages
208
Location
United Kingdom
You've really been struggling with this for quite some time, I feel for you.

Have you had her tested for b12 deficiency? My recent worsening in POTS / autonomic symptoms was probably due to this. I have taken b12 many times in the past without benefit but injections seemed to help.
Could it be responsible for the tingling feeling in the limbs?
Thanks, I appreciate that.
We've had their B12 checked a few times, and got a B1 test too, but all ok.
 

Zebra

Senior Member
Messages
1,105
Location
Northern California
I wasn't aware of this- in terms of autoimmune diseases that target the nervous system, would this be disorders like Guillien Barre, acute autonomic ganglionopathy,

Sort-of. GBS is a medical emergency and fatal if not treated, so we can rule that one out.

I'm going to include some resources below, but I want to stress that the spectrum of autoimmune diseases of the CNS, or inflammatory diseases of the CNS, is so wide and deep that I would not be able to find and list them all.

And, only you and your partner know which diseases / conditions match your partner's disease onset and symptoms.

BTW: it's common for Autoimmune Encephalitis to develop after a viral infection. If I were you, I would focus on the 20 or so variants of AE.

1. Here's a link to a neuro-immune center in UK, and a list of conditions treated. It seems mostly focused on Demyelinating diseases, which doesn't sound like what your partner has.

https://www.gosh.nhs.uk/wards-and-d...ion-parents-and-visitors/conditions-we-treat/

2. Here's a link to a paper on Auto-immune Encephalitis authored by NHS docs.

https://pn.bmj.com/content/21/5/412

3. I'm going to see if I can figure out how to attach a UK medical journal article I recently read about MRI Negative Myelitis. Look for PDF below.

I hope this information is helpful to you and your partner.

Again, I'm not able to provide exhaustive information, but this is a pretty good starting place, and its relevant to your location, I believe.
 

Attachments

  • WongSHetalMyelopathybutnormalMRI1.PracNeurol2008890.pdf
    326.4 KB · Views: 4
Last edited:

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
Location
Brisbane, Australia
autonomic ganglionopathy
There's a blood test for autoimmune autonomic ganglionopathy, alpha3 nicotinic acetylcholine receptor antibody.
By the sounds of the neurological symptoms, they could look into ruling out the involvement of NMDA receptor antibody, Lambert Eaton Myasthenic Syndrome (LEMS) and even a possible paraneoplastic syndrome issue. which can turn up any of these antibodies.
https://pn.bmj.com/content/22/1/19 (an Oxford Uni document on the subject)
 

SpinachHands

Senior Member
Messages
208
Location
United Kingdom
Sort-of. GBS is a medical emergency and fatal if not treated, so we can rule that one out.

I'm going to include some resources below, but I want to stress that the spectrum of autoimmune diseases of the CNS, or inflammatory diseases of the CNS, is so wide and deep that I would not be able to find and list them all.

And, only you and your partner know which diseases / conditions match your partner's disease onset and symptoms.

BTW: it's common for Autoimmune Encephalitis to develop after a viral infection. If I were you, I would focus on the 20 or so variants of AE.

1. Here's a link to a neuro-immune center in UK, and a list of conditions treated. It seems mostly focused on Demyelinating diseases, which doesn't sound like what your partner has.

https://www.gosh.nhs.uk/wards-and-d...ion-parents-and-visitors/conditions-we-treat/

2. Here's a link to a paper on Auto-immune Encephalitis authored by NHS docs.

https://pn.bmj.com/content/21/5/412

3. I'm going to see if I can figure out how to attach a UK medical journal article I recently read about MRI Negative Myelitis. Look for PDF below.

I hope this information is helpful to you and your partner.

Again, I'm not able to provide exhaustive information, but this is a pretty good starting place, and its relevant to your location, I believe.
Thank you for this, and especially for finding UK specific resources! The first link is for a children's hospital sadly, but I think The Walton Centre seems to be a hub for neurology in the UK so I might see if I can push for a referral there from the GP. Two of the authors of that medical journal paper work there I think! That paper is very interesting, gives a lot of differential options to look at. I think doctors keep giving up early because of my partner's ME/long COVID. If a healthy person had the same symptoms come on on the same way, they would have continued investigations.

Someone I met online who had the same exact symptoms as my partner recently saw a doctor called Dr Zandi in London who I'm going to try contacting, who specialises in neuro-immunology, and long COVID. My partner wouldn't be able to travel there like she did, so I hope I can persuade him to do a remote appointment.


I really appreciate your help
 

SpinachHands

Senior Member
Messages
208
Location
United Kingdom
Thank you for this, and especially for finding UK specific resources! The first link is for a children's hospital sadly, but I think The Walton Centre seems to be a hub for neurology in the UK so I might see if I can push for a referral there from the GP. Two of the authors of that medical journal paper work there I think! That paper is very interesting, gives a lot of differential options to look at. I think doctors keep giving up early because of my partner's ME/long COVID. If a healthy person had the same symptoms come on on the same way, they would have continued investigations.

Someone I met online who had the same exact symptoms as my partner recently saw a doctor called Dr Zandi in London who I'm going to try contacting, who specialises in neuro-immunology, and long COVID. My partner wouldn't be able to travel there like she did, so I hope I can persuade him to do a remote appointment.


I really appreciate your help
Unfortunately she says Dr Zandi just thinks it's pots (when has pots ever caused you to not recognise your family...) and referred her to psychiatry so....maybe not 🙃 Have gotten a referral to a rheumatologist though to possibly get more opinions about autoimmunity and possibly vasculitis or neuropathy
 

SpinachHands

Senior Member
Messages
208
Location
United Kingdom
So we've maybe gotten some answers from the infectious diseases specialist that make sense.
For one, their T-Cells were checked and they're significantly low across all counts, CD3, 4 and 8. She's said their immune system dysfunction has reached the point of a secondary immunodeficiency. Secondly, judging by their widespread autonomic dysfunction she said this has gotten far more severe than just POTS. What's likely is the autonomic nerves throughout their body are caused reduced perfusion across multiple organs, and to their brain, leading to cerebral hypoperfusion. The reduced blood volume in the brain means the body will likely prioritise other areas of the brain, reducing blood and oxygen in the frontal cortex, leading to this cognitive dysfunction, memory and emotional problems.

So this severe immunodeficiency and autonomic dysfunction is likely why usual pots and MCAS treatments haven't been enough, and could even be worsening convective tissue problems.

She said the only things she thinks will help would be IVIG or stem cell therapy. I said that I didn't think IVIG was available in the UK, at least not for anything like this, and she said it's not yet but she is making it happen! She literally yesterday got back from an autonomic dysfunction conference in America where she also went to kick off her plans to make IVIG available for her patients. And apparently my partner is her most severe patient, so they might just be the first person to get it in the UK for long COVID/autonomic dysfunction.


For now she's recommended trying fludrocortisone again (my partner didn't react well last time), and said IV fluids can help symptoms but aren't a fix. There is a new drug in development similar to fludrocortisone but is still in clinical trial stages. She said ideal scenario she'd have my partner on IVIG by September but she has a lot to arrange to make it available.


So, no quick fixes or easy answers, but it does fit. And it's amazing to hear that the doctor we happened to find is not only in the same city, but may be able to provide IVIG (at home treatment as well she said!)
 

Zebra

Senior Member
Messages
1,105
Location
Northern California
@SpinachHands

Best wishes to you and your partner for any progress or improvement in their condition.

A couple of years ago a rheumatologist, who I deeply respect, challenged me to think a bit differently about my search for a more precise diagnosis.

She said something like, Who cares about the label? Let's just make the best, most educated guess we can about what this is, and start trying things to get you feeling better.

My initial reaction to a physician saying something like this was not great, but ... I had also lost about a decade of my life to this illness and couldn't imagine living this way much longer.

Again, all the best to you and your partner. Keep us posted!
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
18,300
Have you tried placing these symptoms into various AI bots? These can provide useful potential diagnoses.

I just asked some AI bots the following question:
What could be the cause of the following list of symptoms, given that many of the medical tests and scans listed below found nothing remarkable:

Symptoms list:
- severe cognitive issues: difficulty thinking, concentrating, short term memory problems, every day this is getting worse (at the start of this year they old listen to audio books, now they can barely keep up with a five minute YouTube video, will often repeat the same question not recalling if they asked or what the answer was, can't remember what happened in the day by the evening)
- the above can have worse episodes of disorientation, confusion, not being able to answer or comprehend simple questions, can act "out of it" or like drunk/high, can become giddy/delirious
- intense feelings of pressure in the head, as though something is expanding in their head, generally felt all over, sometimes also in front with sinus pressure
- worsening blurry vision and double vision
- severe dizziness
- mood changes: uncharacteristic/unprompted anger, aggression, rage
- constant whole body feeling of "fizzing" or "sparkling" similar to pins and needles
- sudden weakness (distinct from fatigue, not related to energy but more an inability to move, sometimes becoming full paralysis, particularly in legs)


Tests and scans list:
- all blood tests and panels for infection, inflammation, nutrition/vitamin deficiency, full blood counts, have come back clear, the only exceptions being a low white cell count, and a high ALP
- recently redone thyroid/hormone testing, all normal
- awaiting results of some more specific blood tests, and some 24hr urine collection tests
- head CT, head MRI with and without contrast, spine MRI without contrast, all clear
- eye check for papilledema all clear
- EEG clear
- ECG clear
- home blood pressure tests suggest frequent low diastolic blood pressure particularly, with occasional large sudden increases in BP
- abdominal ultrasound (investigating high ALP) clear

ChatGPT suggested for example: autoimmune encephalitis (e.g., anti-NMDA receptor encephalitis, limbic encephalitis, Hashimoto’s encephalopathy). Plus it gave many other suggestions. You might like to post the same question into ChatGPT, and read the full set of answers it gave.

I would try asking the same question to the following AI bots:
https://chatgpt.com/
https://www.perplexity.ai/
https://gemini.google.com/
https://grok.com/

You can also try entering the symptoms one by one, separated by commas, into https://www.symptoma.com/ , which is an established dedicated medical AI diagnostic too.
 
Last edited:
Back