Feeling worse on huperzine A?

[Mary]

I started taking huperzine A about 5 or 6 days ago, hoping for an increase in energy and help with sleep. Well, it has apparently helped my sleep - my middle of the night several hours long wake up has stopped, just have a brief wake-up and then back to sleep. I'm still taking my handfuls of supplements to sleep as well. Anyways, this part is nice, BUT I don't feel well - my energy is not good, I'm dragging, and I think my stomach is a bit off though not horrible.

Has huperzine A done this to anyone else? Any ideas of what may be going on? I'm stopping it for today at least as I hate the way I feel. I've been taking 125 mcg. (1/2 of a 250 mcg. capsule) per day.

I started taking huperzine A after reading this thread, thinking it may be a substitute for mestinon which many do well with.

 

[andyguitar]

I think my stomach is a bit off though not horrible.

Has huperzine A done this to anyone else?

Never had it myself but it is known to cause stomach discomfort. An interesting supplement and something thats found in a type of moss thats been used in China for a long time. A circulatory stimulant.

 

[Mary]

The worst part has been the fatigue, I felt like I’m sort of in a fog too.

 

[Learner1]

@Mary Huperzine A, just like pyridostigmine,/Mestinon, works to increase acetylcholine. I don't believe there's any accurate way of testing acetylcholine levels, so it's a matter of trying it and seeing if it helps, especially if you also take acetylcholine depleting drugs. Benadryl is one, but there are many others.

Increasing acetylcholine can lead to intestinal discomfort - pyridostigmine did it to me but Source Naturals Huperzine A did not.

According to an article on cholinergic toxicity in Stat Pearls:

"Excess acetylcholine in the brain patients may cause headache, insomnia, giddiness, confusion, and drowsiness. More severe exposures may cause central depression resulting in slurred speech, convulsions, coma, and respiratory depression. Death can occur due to effects on the heart, respiration, and brain."

So, it's not for everyone, unfortunately.

 

[andyguitar]

I'm still taking my handfuls of supplements to sleep as well.

The worst part has been the fatigue, I felt like I’m sort of in a fog too.

Could it be oversedating you?

 

[Wayne]

The worst part has been the fatigue, I felt like I’m sort of in a fog too.

Hi @Mary -- Sorry to hear about the fatigue and fog after starting to sleep better. Reminded me a bit of an experience a good friend of mine with ME/CFS had many years ago. She started using a "pain patch" which I think had some narcotic pain medication. It really worked well for the pain, but she noticed she began to sleep "all the time".

When she mentioned her concerns about her excessive sleeping to her doctor, he told her it was normal for people to sleep a lot after they've been sleep-deprived for many years. He said to give it a few weeks, and she would likely get over it. About four weeks later, she was back to sleeping more normally.

I have somewhat of a pattern of often feeling pretty "out of it" after I've slept unusually well, which has felt paradoxical to me. I would expect to always feel much better, which is also often the case, but I never know what to expect.

Hard to say what's going on with your current experience with Huperzine A, but I think it's "possible" it may be your body trying to adjust to more sleep than it was used to, which would seem to be a good thing. However, it could be the Huperzine A itself, or a raising of acetylcholine levels too much (or too quickly).

I wonder if you could reduce the amount dramatically--perhaps even making a homeopathic solution from it--to see if you could get the improved sleep without the other effects you're dealing with. Here we are again, looking for that elusive "sweet spot" that often varies considerably from day to day for pw/ME/CFS. Keeps us on our toes, eh?

 

[Mary]

"Excess acetylcholine in the brain patients may cause headache, insomnia, giddiness, confusion, and drowsiness. More severe exposures may cause central depression resulting in slurred speech, convulsions, coma, and respiratory depression. Death can occur due to effects on the heart, respiration, and brain."

@Learner1 - oddly it didn't give me insomnia, the opposite in fact. and I didn't feel giddy but more just yucky. Last night I fell asleep about an hour earlier than usual, could not keep my eyes open, and slept pretty soundly with one wake-up, but felt like crap most of the day. I skipped today's dose and am finally starting to feel human again, will have to see if I'm able to sleep tonight though! Thanks for the info -

Could it be oversedating you?

when you say "it", do you mean the huperzine A? I think I may try @Wayne 's suggestion, and use a microscopic dose of the huperzine A, see if I can tolerate that. My body does have a very high tolerance for sleep-enhancing substances. I have to really bombard it to get some sleep! I don't have any prescription drugs for sleep - the drugs are either addicting or I can't tolerate them (e.g., prescription anti-depressants), but I do use several different herbs and amino acids and vitamins (niacin is actually very calming) and I switch them up because I develop a tolerance very quickly. Even with all this I still had trouble sleeping until I added in the huperzine A - I'll see how tonight goes and then may try a very small dose tomorrow and see how I do.

Hard to say what's going on with your current experience with Huperzine A, but I think it's "possible" it may be your body trying to adjust to more sleep than it was used to, which would seem to be a good thing. However, it could be the Huperzine A itself, or a raising of acetylcholine levels too much (or too quickly).

@Wayne, once in awhile I do manage to get a good night's sleep when the planets align - and the only side effect is it feels so nice to have a good night's sleep under my belt - it does not leave me tired. But I think this is a very good suggestion. I was just going to avoid the huperzine A altogether, but I think it's worth a try to go to a very small dose and see what happens - thank you for the suggestion!

 

[andyguitar]

when you say "it", do you mean the huperzine A?

Yes.

 

[helen1]

@Mary
I felt dreadful after trying Huperzine A especially cognitively. I discovered that for me, it’s almost certainly due to a genetically acquired enzyme deficiency, pseudocholinesterase deficiency (which has 6 other names, the other common one being Butyrylcholinesterase deficiency (BChE).

Apparently this deficiency causes increased cognitive problems if taking Aricept for Alzheimer’s or huperzine A for milder cognitive issues. It also causes serious problems if choline esther anesthetics are administered which is how I found I had it, confirmed via gene test.

The genetic incidence is mainly found in middle eastern Jewish populations, basques and portuguese populations and a few other groups.

The deficiency can also be acquired via pesticide toxicity, burns, infections, chemo, etc.

It showed up on my 23andme results.

 

[Mary]

@helen1 - very interesting, thanks for your input! My mom had a horrible reaction to Aricept. One more reason I hate prescription drugs. I don’t think we belong to any of the genetic groups you mention, but I did have 23 and me testing done several years ago and it would probably be good to take a look at the results.

 

[Sushi]

@Mary Huperzime A seems to be one of the active ingredients in the much discussed supplement Parasym Plus. https://www.amazon.com.au/Parasym-PlusTM-Patented-Vagus-Support/dp/B016J8FJYS

https://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/integrative-medicine/herbs/huperzia-serrata

I discovered this when I was trying to replicate the ingredients as the price of the formula is very high. It is supposed to support vagal tone by increasing acetylcholine.

 

[Mary]

It is supposed to support vagal tone by increasing acetylcholine.

This is one of the main reasons I wanted to try it - I've read that stimulating the vagus nerve is supposed to help with sleep and other ME/CFS issues, and it definitely did help me with sleep! But made me feel like crap during the day too unfortunately.

I remember reading about Parasym Plus a few years ago though never really looked into it. I just now looked at the ingredients and it appears to be mainly thiamine, alpha gpc and huperzine A. I do think it's overpriced!

I started taking plain choline several years ago and noticed my memory got better, and had no bad side effects. Apparently alpha gpc is supposed to be better absorbed than plain choline, but plain choline is quite cheap.

Do you recall how you reacted to huperzine A when you were trying to replicate Parasym Plus?

 

[Sushi]

Do you recall how you reacted to huperzine A when you were trying to replicate Parasym Plus?

It was years ago and I'm afraid I don't remember, but I no longer take it so I probably had some sort of difficult reaction.

 

[sb4]

I had high hopes for Parasym Plus years ago thanks to a very brief partial success from alpha GPC. However the parasym Plus didn't do anything. Neither did the alpha GPC after the first dose. The first dose made my POTS symptoms reduce significantly and made me feel the most relaxed I had been since the illness started however my body seemed to adapt and subsequent doses did nothing