E.Coli and Serotonin

[outdamnspot]

According to this article, Mutaflor increases Serotonin: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4663480/

I've been taking Symbioflor 2 for a week now. Initially, I thought the mood symptoms (agitation, spaciness, derealization etc.) were due to a herx, but I'm starting to wonder if they may be due to serotonin modulation.

Is that plausible, and if so, should I stick it out? I never did well on SSRIs etc. though they typically made me numb, whereas since starting the Symbioflor, my mood is far more labile and I want to cry all the time.

 

[outdamnspot]

Alternatively, I wonder if it could be due to effects on methylation? Doesn't Mutaflor jumpstart methylation? I think I recall reading that. Methylfolate made me horribly depressed.

 

[Crux]

I never did well on SSRIs etc. though they typically made me numb, whereas since starting the Symbioflor, my mood is far more labile and I want to cry all the time.

I remember crying for hours at a time when I took SSRIs.

 

[Basilico]

It's definitely possible the probiotics could be introducing some changes in the neurotransmitter balance. I actually just linked a very interesting article on another thread, but it relates directly to what you are experiencing: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gut-second-brain/

Are you taking other supplements that could have effects on neurotransmitters or MAO enzymes? (Like turmeric, for example, is a weak MAO inhibitor, or St. John's Wort, or amino acids like tryptophan or 5HTP, etc...). If yes, then you might want to suspend taking those things and stick with the SymbioFlor2 for the time being.

I am very skeptical about the concept of a herxheimer reaction, because there is only scientific proof that it happens with a very few specific pathogens (such as Syphilus and Lyme) and I really think that this whole idea that everything can cause a herxheimer reaction is just a way for "CFS specialists" who don't really know what's going on try to find an explanation for what's happening with their patients. I believe that what CFS patients often experience is not a herx reaction, but a hypersensitivity. There are so many people who are told they are having a herx reaction and to stick with a treatment, and continuation of the treatment ends up causing serious harm (my husband had this experience with SIBO antibiotics).

If you aren't taking anything else that could be causing this mood reaction and you continue to experience this, then my advice would be to suspend the SymbioFlor2.

 

[outdamnspot]

@Basilico Thank you for your reply. I'm not taking any other supplements and actually suspended the SymbioFlor2 a week ago, though according to Ken, E.Coli probiotics can persist for up to 20 weeks in the gut.

I feel a bit torn. Before I started the SymbioFlor2, I was so weak I could barely move. Within a few days, it robustly improved my 'adrenal' function, i.e. needed a lot less salt, had more mental energy, normal sexual function, didn't feel like I was dying. But the spaciness/aggression/fits of teariness etc. were too much. I felt good mentally for the first week (almost euphoric), so I wonder if maybe my serotonin receptors are overly sensitive and it was agonizing them .. and they would eventually downregulate. Going day-after-day in that state was difficult. But I've stopped it and am back to the weak/dying-feeling. So not sure which is worse

 

[humanzee]

I took Symbioflor-2 over a three week period and my cfs symptons worsened as a result. I slowly ramped up the dosage over the 3 weeks - getting up to 21 drops per day in the end. In the third week I experienced worsening cfs symptons and severe depression (the worst I've ever experienced). The depression took 3 days to abate after I stopped taking them and one month later, I am yet to return to my prior level of functioning. It seems I have reacted badly to this ecoli probiotic - my post exertion malaise and reading/concentrating threshold have both dropped dramatically.

 

[outdamnspot]

I took Symbioflor-2 over a three week period and my cfs symptons worsened as a result. I slowly ramped up the dosage over the 3 weeks - getting up to 21 drops per day in the end. In the third week I experienced worsening cfs symptons and severe depression (the worst I've ever experienced). The depression took 3 days to abate after I stopped taking them and one month later, I am yet to return to my prior level of functioning. It seems I have reacted badly to this ecoli probiotic - my post exertion malaise and reading/concentrating threshold have both dropped dramatically.

I'm not really sure what to think about Symbioflor. The first course made me feel awful. I did the second course after a round of gut herbs (Haritaki, Oil of Oregano etc.) and I felt amazing, with improved mood, euphoria, far more energy etc. though the effect disappeared once I stopped it. The third course had some mild positive benefits, but nothing like the second.

Trying to treat the gut has definitely affected my cognition for the worse, however. I've kind of given up trying to determine what's what now.

Symbioflor persists in the gut, so if it caused problems, you could try Miyarisan, which Ken says will counter E.Coli probiotics.

 

[humanzee]

Thanks for the tip - will try get my hands on some Miyarisan.

I'm about to do a herb cleanse - a 2 week wipe out, 2 week rebuild cycle for 3 - 6 months. Will also be taking digestive aids and plenty of mitochondria supplements. Hopefully it's not a big waste of $$$ I think i'll give up trying after that.

 

[Tuskentank]

You could try a probiotic like Just Thrive, all bacillus strains. These increase dopamine and noradrenaline, and competitively inhibit E Coli.

 

[keenly]

You could try a probiotic like Just Thrive, all bacillus strains. These increase dopamine and noradrenaline, and competitively inhibit E Coli.

You DO NOT want to inhibit E coli which is low in CFS patients.