DHEA differences between tablets and creams??

[heapsreal]

Anyone find a difference between oral dhea and transdermal cream dhea?? I wonder if equal dosages used but taken differently gives similar blood level increases or not ?
I have read of men using it(tablets) in multiple lower dosages throughout the day eg 50mg once a day versues 25mg morning and night or broken down into smaller multiple doses, the idea for men is that less is converted to estrogen which they have seen with blood tests. Creams are suppose to be slower absorbed which you would think would help with slowing down estrogen conversion. So yes has anyone found tablets or creams more energizing etc??

cheers!!!

 

[*GG*]

I take 100mg/day in the morning and/or upon waking for the day, which can be early afternoon sometimes. I work 30 hours/week and have pretty good energy considering the CFS. Never used a cream. Perhaps this helps?

GG

 

[Sallysblooms]

I take 7 Keto DHEA. Capsules.

 

[heapsreal]

I think im just going to try both and see how they feel. Being in australia is a bugger as they are prescription and expensive, eg 200 x 10mg dhea caps cost $90, i think on iherb there like between 10-$20. Here though probably more economical to buy creams. At the moment the dhea i use is in a cream combined with pregnenolone, so would like to try it without pregnenolone, both cream and caps. When i do i will post my results. There also classed as an anabolic steriod here so when u try to import them from iherb customs nab them and give u a warning as they know there supplements in most other countries. Im sure if it were really steriods they would be knocking on my door.

cheers!!!

 

[Sallysblooms]

Mine are compounded at the pharmacy with my other hormones. Good luck, hope they help!

 

[rydra_wong]

www.lef.org says that the cream forms of DHEA don't go through the liver so you can avoid potential liver enlargement that way. I have been wanting to try creams but haven't gotton around to investigating yet...mostly because I am starting pellet hormone injections (2x/year is all that is needed) and until we figure out the dose I don't want to play with any other hormone. But there is a dosage difference between cream and tablet and I do not know what it is...do not think you can take 25mg tablet and 25mg cream and compare. I do not know the dose differential - that was one of the things I was going to figure out.

I take 50mg DHEA + 30mg pregnenolone in the a.m. and 25mg DHEA later in the day. DHEA only stays in your system 20 hours so to stay covered you need a divided dose. There are DHEA slow dissolve ablets intended to keep it in your system 24 hours -- I have not played with this either. I would have to determine the dosage so it would not be easy for me. I need 25mg or better in my system at all times so if you buy 50mg pills that slow dissolve, what actual dose is in your system all day? You see, it is a problem to work out.

I would caution that DHEA is hormone replacement and you should consider all the strategies for warding off cancer out there when you embark on hormone replacement. For instance, DHEA makes all your sex hormones except progesterone and it is important to balance estrogen with progesterone (this is why I take pregnenolone). I also take Vitamin D, selenium, and a cruciferous vegetable supplement as deficiencies of these were shown to be linked to breast cancer. They always advise you to take calcium-d-glucarate because it helps you excrete estrogen (you do not need to if you get enough in your diet - I don't remember what it is in -- maybe berries but idk). For males, you could do a search at www.lef.org for male hormone replacement and they will list many strategies for avoiding cancer that you can pick from. I do know (and hate that) but my cruciferous vegetable supplement which is made by LEF but I buy from iherb contains an aromatase inhibitor in it (it was made for men but marketted for everyone).

I get extensive hormone labs at Meridian Valley Labs (also through Life Extension) and my DHEA and pregnenolone strategy works perfectly for me -- the metabolites made out of it are cancer protective, not cancer causing, and I think it might be in part due to the cruciferous vegetable capsules. The lab even lists broccoli as one of the things that can make your hormones come right.

There are thousands of studies out there indicating positive effects in many degenerative diseases with 50mg of DHEA in men and women over 50. (Thousands of studies showing it is safe and healthful). There are only a handful of studies showing 100mg DHEA is effective for depression. Not enough to be sure it is safe. But 50mg did not work for me.

-----

Oh! I was just staying up late with the door open hoping my escapee cat would come home (he is feral so pretty hard to catch him, but hes pretty clueless and not street-smart enough to survive on his own so I was hoping that, being a hefty boy and loving his food, that he'd come in if I just left the door open so he could sneak back in ---

AND HE JUST DID! ) (One less worry! I hope you find something to smile about too!)

 

[heapsreal]

When it comes to way up pro's and cons of transdermal versus oral dhea its hard to be accurate. I think its down to trial and error. Yes i have been trying to find info on dosage difference between transdermal vs oral but cant seem to find any. I have found that dhea does seem to increase the stimulating effects of pregnenolone in a certain way. Today i used my normal combo cream of dhea/preg 5mg each and took 10mg oral dhea. Felt a little over stimulated, so tomorrow im just going to use oral dhea AT 10MG and later on add a second dose of 10mg in the afternoon. The smaller mutliple doses i have read can help minimise any estrogen conversion from it, plus im also on an aromatise inhibitor(AI) this time. Last time i used oral dhea only and it increase estrogen to high and wasnt on an AI, only got slight good effects from dhea but this could have been from estrogen conversion.

Once i get the dose sorted i will look into a slow release version. One of my main aims of using dhea and fixing adrenal hormones is to improve sleep. Posted a few studies showing dhea lowers IL6 which is an inflammatory cytokine which is commonly high in cfs and also known to cause sleep problems. I am dropping pregnenolone for awhile to see how dhea effects me as well as some blood work after a few weeks.

Liver side effects are a concern as im on other meds but do use antioxidants to protect my liver and have it monitored through blood tests regularly. SO far my liver function has been good.

cheers!!!

 

[Sallysblooms]

Heaps, did you ever get the book by Dr. Dzugan? I am so blessed to have him as my doctor.

 

[SaraM]

I am using 25 mg Pregnenolone which helps with some symptoms, but it causes worsening of facial acne. I am really worried about Preg conversion to estogen and male hormones though. My Dhea level is around 80, but I do not feel any difference when I use Dhea , even for a long period of time. I am also thinking of trying Preg and Dhea in cream form, and still feel hesitant about using Rx ar inhibitor due to lots of negative reviews on the net.I have low dhea, low cortisol, high estrogen, normal progesterone and testosterone.
Has anybody been able to control muscle pain with balancing the hormone levels? Right now muscle pain is my worst symptoms, and I cannot take meds for it because it worsens all other symptoms.

 

[heapsreal]

In my experience i found pregnenolone increased my cortisol levels alot as well as testosterone (remember im male also effects everyone differently) and energizing, helps with inflammation and joint pains, and little effect on dhea or progesterone. still working on dhea but from what i have read dhea is more converted to testosterone in women and estrogen in men but low doses can help with this. Everyone reacts differently, the only way you will know is to try it in different doses and combinations with other supps.

If you stay with low doses of pregnenolone and dhea and see what happens. Progesterone can help with high estrogen levels know as estrogen dominance as well as products like DIM can help with estrogen metabolism.

 

[rydra_wong]

SaraM,

If pregnenolone caused facial acne for you that was from a rise in testosterone levels (probably from abnormally low). I would never let acne keep me from something that could help me with something more serious. I would simply work on the acne problem (I have heard zinc helps and I have heard Vitamin A helps. For me zinc always helped).

However I found that after a few days the acne flareup from DHEA goes right away. (And btw, it is not just an acne flareup...it will make you a sex maniac for a few days so make sure you're not around any strange guys!) As far as I can figure that is only caused by the rise in testosterone and once you level off it will not occur.

HOWEVER, if you do not take a divided dose such that your testosterone goes to near zero each night, then each morning you will have a rise in testosterone and these symptoms all over again. These symptoms only settle down if you can keep a steady amount of testosterone in your system via a steady amount of DHEA.

I hope that helps
Rydra

 

[rydra_wong]

Heaps

Yes, it is known that DHEA lowers cortisol. Your DHEA:cortisol ratio governs how much stress you can take. In young people this ratio is 10:1.
That is why the can blast their music and not flinch. When I am replete on DHEA I can now also blast my music (But I reserve that for the
first day of spring and try to avoid being annoying the other 365 days!). (OK, I don't think you can blast music anyway if you are deficient in magnesium, as that supposedly makes you sound sensitive).

I can tell you when I knew my DHEA was too low -- I could no longer tolerate even one coffee (or maybe just one barely) a day. Two cups of coffee raise your cortisol 33%. The drink is just liquid stress! (I love it, but respect it now like I never used to). When you raise your DHEA you can tolerate coffee again. However one can never take coffee for granted after such an experience because now I have learned that cortisol is the number one killer of brain cells and coffee is going to try to nuke some of my precious brain cells!

Well, they now know we can regenerate brain cells so I guess I can spare a few, but I keep the coffee consumption to a minimum.

I never saw any proof but it sounds right to me what some others used to say on wrongdiagnosis -- that if your body is short a needed nutrient (whether due to geneitics or poor diet) that is a stress to your body which raises cortisol (which wears on your adrenal gland). Look at my genes!--I think my adrenal gland needs the assist.

Rydra

 

[heapsreal]

I have been using dhea pills at 10mg twice a day now for a week with approx 5 mg of pregnenolone cream. So far i dont find the pills over agitating like the same dose of dhea cream which is a good thing, so maybe orally it isnt has strong as its broken down in the liver first or just metabolized differently to the cream. Go for blood tests soon, so we will see how that pans out too. My dhea is below the reference range, so hopefully can get it into the upper 1/3 of the range and this helps with recovery from activity, also helps with IL6 an inflammatory cytokine which can interfere with sleep, so improves sleep hopefully.

 

[SaraM]

Thanks Rydra. Just wanted to say that I am a mess when it comes to my hormonal levels. Yesterday checked my test results again and noticed I have almost no progersterone ( just 1.2 ng/ml) with estradiol at 361 pg/ml. I was very weak around the time those tests were done and could not do much about it. I tried Progest Cream for a month which eliminated my muscle pain, but then stopped working. Doc gave me Prometrium 100 mg a day which I took for just a few days, because it made me more dizzy . This was all in 2008. Yesterday I took about 40 mg of Prometrium again, and had less muscle pain.Today I also seem to have less brain fog without even taking DHEA and Preg. Low Progesterone seems like a major factor in my case and I plan to continue taking it everyday. It seems taking a higher dose of Prog for 14 days in a month which is advised by most doctors, does not work for me. Anyway, I am happy you guys brought up the hormonal issue and share good info on it.

 

[heapsreal]

Thanks Rydra. Just wanted to say that I am a mess when it comes to my hormonal levels. Yesterday checked my test results again and noticed I have almost no progersterone ( just 1.2 ng/ml) with estradiol at 361 pg/ml. I was very weak around the time those tests were done and could not do much about it. I tried Progest Cream for a month which eliminated my muscle pain, but then stopped working. Doc gave me Prometrium 100 mg a day which I took for just a few days, because it made me more dizzy . This was all in 2008. Yesterday I took about 40 mg of Prometrium again, and had less muscle pain.Today I also seem to have less brain fog without even taking DHEA and Preg. Low Progesterone seems like a major factor in my case and I plan to continue taking it everyday. It seems taking a higher dose of Prog for 14 days in a month which is advised by most doctors, does not work for me. Anyway, I am happy you guys brought up the hormonal issue and share good info on it.

Low progesterone can indicate low pregnenolone and u probably have pregnenolone steal going on, which can cause adrenal fatigue and basically means that what pregnenolone you produce is being shuttled into cortisol production at the expense of other hormones. Supplementing with progesterone can be just as effective as pregnenolone as the body can convert progesterone to many hormones like pregnenolone. Sounds like your on the right path if your feeling better.

cheers!!!

 

[SaraM]

Heaps, Dr.Elizabeth Vliet , an expert on hormonal issues and the author of a few books, believes Pregnenolone is useless for balancing Estrogen and Progesterone. So, as you mentioned I guess I must supplement with Progesterone, and of course I will still take some Pregnenolone,too. I also want to try Arimidex, but still can't make up my mind. Other hormones: Aldosterone level is at 44 ng/dl ,high and out of range ,and anti diuretic hormone level is 1.4 which is very low but in normal range.

 

[Sallysblooms]

Make sure you learn about Dr. Sergey Dzugan. He is one of my doctors. He has a book that is helpful and he is amazing.

 

[heapsreal]

Heaps, Dr.Elizabeth Vliet , an expert on hormonal issues and the author of a few books, believes Pregnenolone is useless for balancing Estrogen and Progesterone. So, as you mentioned I guess I must supplement with Progesterone, and of course I will still take some Pregnenolone,too. I also want to try Arimidex, but still can't make up my mind. Other hormones: Aldosterone level is at 44 ng/dl ,high and out of range ,and anti diuretic hormone level is 1.4 which is very low but in normal range.

Hi Sara,
Arimidex is used in breast cancer and off label for men with high estrogen levels and used in conjunction with testosterone in antiaging clinics. Im not sure if arimidex is what is used in females to balance estrogen, normally its done by using progesterone like u have mentioned. Arimidex stops estrogen production which can go high in men but i think with women its mainly estrogen progesterone ratio that causes estrogen dominance, not necessarily too higher estrogen, but im not certain as i have only looked at it from a male perspective.

Pregnenolone i find good for energy and from testing i have had, it didnt seem to effect my progesterone levels at all and same with dhea, but did increase cortisol and testosterone. All this seems very individual from what i have read of others experience with these types of hormones. When u get tests done it would be interesting to see how other hormones flow down the hormone pathway effecting more down stream hormones. Please keep in touch, sounds interesting.

cheers!!!

 

[SaraM]

Hi Sally, as you said before in your PM , I must first find a local doc to work with Dr.Dzugan, but I will order his book. I think Dzugan is a better choice than a local Endo who does hormone therapy. Dr.Uzzi Reiss is another expert on hormonal problems.

Hi Heaps, I will keep in touch and report the results. As far as I remember, having high estrogen and progesterone are not good either. I will order Arimidex soon , and start with a very low dose (0.25 every 3 days). I have started taking 10 mg Dhea , 50 mg preg, and 20-50 mg Progesterone at night.Taking Dhea and Progesterone in the morning makes me feel more tried and dizzy.Progesterone also causes a dull headache. I am going to try them in different forms and doses and do the blood tests from time to time.

cheers!