Cocaine

[ramakentesh]

Does anyone have the link to the guy in Europe (I cant remember if he was english or scando?) who claimd to have cured his CFS with cocaine? Ive been telling a few people about it and I had his email at one stage but Ive lost it. Now ive lost the email and Im wondering whether hs website was pulled for being pro-drug?

 

[gu3vara]

Sounds reasonable...not

 

[adreno]

Methylphenidate is very similar in structure. And legal.

 

[allyb]

Does anyone have the link to the guy in Europe (I cant remember if he was english or scando?) who claimd to have cured his CFS with cocaine?

:scared:
I think his Name was Sigmund Freud, he claimed cocaine was a wondered drug, a 'cure all,' ideal for malaise and a panacea for all ills'!! He took it himself, promoted and administered it to all and sundry for most things.

When people (including him, I think) developed various psychosess he invented psychotherapy to address this mass epidemic.

He used labels like hysteria 'somatization disorder' and invented conversion disorder to describe those with drug addled/induced symptoms; he then also lumped in those with serious illnesses under these labels. And he became a living legend bless him.

Now
Fast-forward a 100 years or so ......................
Here I am (and many of my M.E. comrades) lumped into these labels .............. thanks Fraud.

Apologies, ramakentesh, I know you are being serious, I hope you dont mind me making light of your valid question and Im sure someone from this forun; fountain of knowledge will come up with the information you require.

Kindest regards

Allyb
:Retro smile:

 

[mellster]

I couldn't disagree more - I think it actually sounds fairly reasonable. You can find numerous studies on how cocaine boosts the immune system including NK cells - I have always wondered why frequent life-long cocaine users don't seem to have many health problems and in fact seem energetic and youthful if they didn't overdo it. IMO most illegal drugs, if used reasonably and under supervision could be used to treat quite a few diseases more successfully than legal drugs. Remember Heroin was popular as cough medicine once... And yes, Methylphenidate (Ritalin) is similar, as is its illegal cousin Ecstasy, but I think from what I read cocaine might work far better. Sola dosis facet venenum!

 

[Patrick*]

Mellster, your post intrigued me. My Google search only returned articles about how cocaine weakens the immune system. Where are these contrary articles?

Regards,

PWCalvin

 

[mellster]

Here is one for starters: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC424504/
I guess there are always 2 sides to the story - putting your body constantly on fire can't be good and the psychological effects have also been mentioned before. But you could say that for almost any drug. I don't know which side of results is in the majority, but to me it makes more sense that it - at least temporarily - would boost the immune system. I mean consider this, most PWCs have low or low normal NK cell function/activity, and the study linked above is not exactly new, why on earth hasn't there been a controlled trial with cocaine yet??

 

[Nielk]

Great idea! I'm already addicted to Klonopin and Viibryd, why not add Cocaine?
Actually, LSD is being used to treat addiction, depression and headaches. http://www.oddee.com/item_97276.aspx
I have thought of trying that.

 

[mellster]

Ha - good retort! I think cocaine lacks the physical aspect of withdrawal, so the addiction - if it develops - is of mostly psychological nature 'only'.

 

[SickOfSickness]

You got me curious and I did a little reading.

"Cocaine is a strong and effective pain killer and widely used for anesthetizing mucous membranes of the nose, eyes and throat." The page was about thyroid and didn't say anything else relevant that I could find.

"it is a serotoninnorepinephrinedopamine reuptake inhibitor"

From a page about norepinephrine (NE): "The effects of several street drugs, including cocaine and illegal amphetamines, stem from increased NE levels and the resulting physical arousal and feelings of elation, which is part of what makes these drugs addictive."

About methylphenidate mentioned above: "Ritalin has been called "kiddy cocaine," as its effects are similar"

"chronic cocaine use is believed to cause catecholamine depletion"

"Provigil does the opposite. Provigil does several things, but is mostly an NMDA-activator it's a stimulant similar to cocaineit will actually stimulate nitric oxide production. It may also stimulate ATP generation, which is the benefit perhaps that one sees. With more nitric oxide, you can think better, your memory improves, you can focus better, and you have more energy. But what you're doing is generating more peroxynitrite and this may not be felt for a while, but ultimately it's probably feltin the brain at leastas Alzheimer's or Parkinson's Disease or worse, ten years from now."

"1884 - Sigmund Freud advocated cocaine use to alleviate chronic fatigue"

 

[ramakentesh]

thanks for the replies. I got a good laugh from a few - LOL.

So has anyone else read his blog when it was up? It may still be but i cant find it.

The story went that he tried a whole huge list of supplements, herbs, you name it with no or limited benefit (first problem I noted was that he tried them all acutely and not chronically). He then obtained some MDMA and then cocaine and was convinced that the later worked wonders.

He was actually quite intelligent and had provided valid reasoning for why either might be beneficial. He had references and papers on MDMA and cocaine and their effects and how this might translate into benefit for CFS. Tonnes on how cocaine worked primarily on upregulation of the three major neurotransmitters through blockade of CNS DAT, SERT and NET and possible re-regulation of these transporters through chronic exposure. I remember he even had a regime for dosage suggested which I think from my untrained eye was fairly small in terms of amounts (micro dosing).

id forgottan about this until recently when a friend of mine (who is from Costa Rica) suggested jokingly that coca leaf (that is the un-adulterated version of the plant) can help fatigue.

Its also interesting because the medical properties of other illegal drugs such as marijuana in particular are now becoming clearer and better supported through peer-reviewed medical research. I find it interesting that no one can really say clearly what the natural cannabanoid receptors do in the human body, or why 80% of them are in immune cells as an example. Even stranger was the finding that 5HT-2 receptor agonists like LSD and DOB are potent - as in the most potent known to man - TNF alpha inhibitors.

So I guess my point is - what if this guy was right? I wish i could find the blog. it was pretty interesting.

 

[heapsreal]

I think with using stimulants it can be like whipping a dead horse especially regularly, eventually u just konk out. energy is good but we need to have the capcity to recover from using this energy??

cheers!!!

 

[ramakentesh]

true assuming that there is definately an abnormality in energy regulation as the primary problem in CFS which is yet to be demonstrated. it always seems odd to me that cns and or chronic sympathetic activation results in fatigue and reduced blood brain flow rather than the opposite. But I think your possibly right.

 

[ramakentesh]

With more nitric oxide, you can think better, your memory improves, you can focus better, and you have more energy. But what you're doing is generating more peroxynitrite and this may not be felt for a while, but ultimately it's probably feltin the brain at leastas Alzheimer's or Parkinson's Disease or worse, ten years from now."

mmm... increased cerebral nitric oxide could result in cerebral vasodilation I guess - hopefully not to the point of migraine and release of vasoactive inflammatory markers like CGRP, etc (which would stimulate further NO vasodilation). Im not sure how increased NO translates to increased focus or energy? Increased cerebral NO expression is connected to reduced sympathetic outflow and periperhally with vasodilation I guess... Also im not convinced about a primary etiological mechanism for either Parkinsons or Alz that involves a primary problem of peroxynitrite-mediated free-radical damage. its just as likely in Alzheimers that there is a primary problem of cerebral autoregulation that results in abnormal brain blood perfusion and that this results in imbalances of lactate, glucose metabolism and eventually freeradical damage (that the lactate is increased to try and prevent in the short term - as suggested now in CFS).

 

[heapsreal]

mmm... increased cerebral nitric oxide could result in cerebral vasodilation I guess - hopefully not to the point of migraine and release of vasoactive inflammatory markers like CGRP, etc (which would stimulate further NO vasodilation). Im not sure how increased NO translates to increased focus or energy? Increased cerebral NO expression is connected to reduced sympathetic outflow and periperhally with vasodilation I guess... Also im not convinced about a primary etiological mechanism for either Parkinsons or Alz that involves a primary problem of peroxynitrite-mediated free-radical damage. its just as likely in Alzheimers that there is a primary problem of cerebral autoregulation that results in abnormal brain blood perfusion and that this results in imbalances of lactate, glucose metabolism and eventually freeradical damage (that the lactate is increased to try and prevent in the short term - as suggested now in CFS).

Interesting, jay goldstein has been known to use viagra to help improve cerebral perfusion as it causes vasodilation and increases nitric oxide, but yes your right we have to be careful of peroxynitrate, maybe using b12 and other antioxidants would help counteract any negative effects of peroxynitrate.

cheers!!!

 

[JAH]

id forgottan about this until recently when a friend of mine (who is from Costa Rica) suggested jokingly that coca leaf (that is the un-adulterated version of the plant) can help fatigue.

.

I had a similar experience, only the guy was from Bolivia. He brought me some coca leaf tea (which is somehow legal in the US) and it really did nothing for me. Similar to a caffeine feeling. I have found stimulants to be as heapsreal described, beating a dead horse.

Cocaine is no joke- ask Whitney Houston...

JAH

 

[ramakentesh]

Interesting. thanks for the input. Disappointing but not overly surprising I guess. Most of us are wired and tired rather than just plane old tired.

Dr Bell once talked about using caffeine for one type of fatigue and gaba agonists for the wired tired. Ive tried that and the results are never that concrete. What helps one day does the opposite the next... In my POTS I feel dizzy so youd think that midodrine would help but it makes me much worse.

Thing about midodrine is it is structurally similar to some illegal stimulants as well.

As for Nitric oxide - yeah good point - if elevated NO is a concern then there are definately ways of protecting against potential free radical damage. Some POTs patients at least seem to have too little NO while others too much. So what could help one might work the opposite on others.

There are studies on other ways to improve cerebral autoregulation other than viagra. There was a study on viagra but I didnt get a response to the email I sent the doctor. I remember seeing it for sale on the street in taiwan many years ago.

 

[ramakentesh]

And yes Cocaine is certainly no joke. I was more interested in finding this guys blog and seeing how it was going. But since I cant find it I wonder what happened.

 

[mellster]

Well I could say cocaine is great - ask Charlie Sheen. I think the likes that go down with it are few and far between and exceptions, especially compared to the millions of alcohol or prescription-drug addicts. Fact is most even regular cocaine users you could not tell from hanging out with them, you certainly cannot say the same thing about an alcoholic. I maintain my stance that it is a fairly harmless drug, as long as you don't use it like Al Pacino in Scarface And, beating a dead horse aside, I find it more interesting in raising NK cells substantially, we have a lot of other stimulants but not a lot of components that improve the immune system.

 

[Jarod]

Never tried cocaine.

But! I'm all for exploring all alternatives! I agree that cocaine might be like beating a dead horse. Plus that stuff is expensive.

I posted an article on juicing marijuana leaves for the CBD's. I think that might work.

I would also consider trying majic mushrooms. I Tired those long time ago. Of course one could not do them every day, but once or twice a year might help. There are studies that talk about lasting affects on depression. I would guess that may be from gut health???

Way back when, I took mushrooms and was able drink all the alcohol one wanted. At this time, I had a limited tolerance for alcohol so it made an impression. Never did get a hangover and was in a great mood for days after. Must have been a reason for the increased tolerance for alcohol.