Can somebody debunk this?

[Oliver3]

I'm a decently informed m.e. layman but my learning is not that sophisticated.
This interview with Judy mikowitz seems incredibly persuasive . Not all her assertions here can be true, but the enndicanniboud as part of the key gears in all illnesses seems persuasive .
I got interested in this after being very sick recently and resorting to cannabis and gaining immediate relief.
The effect it has on my vascular system is better than any pharmaceutical drug which, if this is a form of vascular autoimmunity, it's th 1 shift and supression of autoimmunity, temporarily makes sense.
If I understand mikowitz right, she's saying retroviruses are causing the destruction of these receptors...obvs the retroviruses cone from vaccines in her eyes, which could be feasible coundnt it?
But wouldn't naviaux be more believable, the increasing posining of the immune system wrecking the ECS.
I'm getting increasingly worried that many of these so called conspiracies are true..someone save me!!

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

If I understand mikowitz right, she's saying retroviruses are causing the destruction of these receptors...obvs the retroviruses cone from vaccines in her eyes, which could be feasible coundnt it?

Mikovits. Does she provide any evidence for her claims?

She claims that Covid-19 is propaganda. The vaccine, she says, is not a vaccine but a synthetical (sic!) chemical which deregulates the endocannabinoid system, immune homeostasis and “all of health: neuroimmune health, cardiovascular health (...)”
I think we have better evidence for the opposite while she does not provide any evidence.


She also says that all publications are now about Covid-19 (meaning that's a propaganda) while this is1. not true (just look at @Pyrrhus recent posts and I myself read a ton of studies that doesn't even mention this virus published 2020/2021 and 2. there is a very non-propaganda reason for the high amount of studies on Covid-19: this virus killed over 5 million ppl worldwide with 8000 new cases every day. What she criticises is how science works. Non-sense!

She quotes a paper saying that retroviruses use TRPV1/2 to enter a host's cell while (I read it) this paper doesn't even mention retroviruses.

“Every chronic disease has a dysregulated microbiome/virome” - we don't have enough evidence for that, that's not consensus in medical literature! I know it's unpopular here to say but don't even have a consensus on the role of the microbiome a itself! This is a new developing knowledge we have to research still.

She says that each vaccination leads to a cytokine storm creating ROS and this creating even more inflammation as more cytokine and that we see young ppl who were given the shots showing these signs (no source) - again, we have no evidence for this.

“Nothing that is called Covid-19 has anything to do with the virus Sars-Co-2” she really says that. So I think every (!) faculty and institution in the world just made a mistake?! Come on!!!

“We see younger and younger ppl with retroviruses” - no source! Does she mean HIV? The general infections have come down worldwide. She further states that all we see now has nothing to do with Sars-Co-2 but the dysregulation of the mechanism of evolutionary virome and it's role for immune regulation. It's not very clear what she refers to but she mentions the “shots” and that there would be a consensus on this by the “unbiased” scientific community (who? The Corona deniers and aluminum hat wearers?)
The paper she quotes is mainly about animals and ERV. Asit comes to human cells IN VITRO the study says

The provirus, HERV-K108, encodes full-length Env with four mutations compared to the consensus, ancestral HERV-K(HML-2) protein. These mutations appear to be required for inhibiting HIV-1.
[...]
It is therefore tempting to speculate that inducible HERV-K(HML-2) proviruses have been evolutionarily conserved to express Env (and Gag, see below) to protect against exogenous retroviruses such as HIV.
[…]
In human cells, the HERV-K Rec protein expressed during early embryogenesis activates innate immune responses by inducing expression of the IFITM1 gene, which protects the cell from viral infection (Grow et al., 2015). Moreover, ERVs have introduced and amplified interferon (IFN)-inducible enhancers within eukaryotic genomes and provide transcription factor binding sites (TFBS) that are enriched in proximity to genes involved in immune pathways (Chuong et al., 2016; Ito et al., 2017). This suggests that ERV sequences have been specifically adopted by host cells to modulate IFN responses, a major branch of the antiviral immune defense. An example in the human genome is the HERV-K(HML-10) family recently described by us and others (Broecker et al., 2016; Grandi et al., 2017). TFBS within the LTRs are frequently occupied, as determined by the ENCODE project (Davis et al., 2018), especially in the human myelogenous leukemia cell line K562 (Figure 3A). HERV-K(HML-10) elements appear to be enriched in loci involved in immunity such as the extended major histocompatibility complex (xMHC) and the extended leukocyte receptor complex (xLRC) (Barrow and Trowsdale, 2008; Horton et al., 2004) (Figure 3B). The data suggests that HML-10 has been captured by the host for the regulation of immune-related genes.
In human cells, the HERV-K Rec protein expressed during early embryogenesis activates innate immune responses by inducing expression of the IFITM1 gene, which protects the cell from viral infection (Grow et al., 2015). Moreover, ERVs have introduced and amplified interferon (IFN)-inducible enhancers within eukaryotic genomes and provide transcription factor binding sites (TFBS) that are enriched in proximity to genes involved in immune pathways (Chuong et al., 2016; Ito et al., 2017). This suggests that ERV sequences have been specifically adopted by host cells to modulate IFN responses, a major branch of the antiviral immune defense. An example in the human genome is the HERV-K(HML-10) family recently described by us and others (Broecker et al., 2016; Grandi et al., 2017). TFBS within the LTRs are frequently occupied, as determined by the ENCODE project (Davis et al., 2018), especially in the human myelogenous leukemia cell line K562 (Figure 3A). HERV-K(HML-10) elements appear to be enriched in loci involved in immunity such as the extended major histocompatibility complex (xMHC) and the extended leukocyte receptor complex (xLRC) (Barrow and Trowsdale, 2008; Horton et al., 2004) (Figure 3B). The data suggests that HML-10 has been captured by the host for the regulation of immune-related genes.
[...]
It has to be noted that antiviral defense is by far not the only function of endogenized viruses and TEs. For example, deletion of all replication-deficient prophages in E. coli has resulted in fitness deficits under diverse environmental conditions, including increased susceptibility to antibiotics and osmotic stress, slower cell growth and reduced biofilm formation (Wang et al., 2010). In eukaryotes, TEs and ERVs do not only modulate IFN response genes and constitute antiviral defense mechanisms, but also play distinct roles in cell differentiation, stem cell pluripotency and embryonic development, amongst others (Chuong et al., 2017), and the industrial melanism mutation of peppered moths has been shown to be caused by a TE insertion (Van’t Hof et al., 2016). These examples highlight the multifaceted roles of TEs and viral sequences in pro- and eukaryotes. However, given their diverse roles in various immune systems (Figure 1), it appears that recruitment of TEs, viral sequences and other MGEs for antiviral defense mechanisms has been a major driving force in the evolution of cellular life.

So, the study doesn’t even mention her claims.
She says that the cannabinoid receptors are the only one who can down regulate proinflammatory cytokines (I think she means it bc she says that they stop the inflammation). These cytokines are signaling molecules

that is secreted from immune cells like helper T cells(Th) and macrophages, and certain other cell types that promote inflammation. They include interleukin-1 (IL-1), IL-12, and IL-18, tumor necrosis factor alpha(TNF-α), interferon gamma (IFNγ), and granulocyte-macrophage colony stimulating factor (GM-CSF)and play an important role in mediating the innate immune response. Inflammatory cytokines are predominantly produced by and involved in the upregulation of inflammatory reactions.

The downregulation without medical intervention:

Estrogen has been shown to promote healing by decrease the production of various proinflammatory cytokines like IL-6,[22] TNF-α,[23] and macrophage migration inhibitory factor (MIF).
[...]
Some research also suggest an immunoregulatory effect of vitamin D, which has been shown to reduce the secretion of specific inflammatory cytokines.[26][27]

Amy Proal for example researchers the VDR and it's role on downregulation of PIC.

There indeed is some evidence of the role of cannabinoid receptors in chronic inflammatory diseases.

Results: Pro-inflammatory cytokines IL-1β, IL-6 and TNF-α (the latter likely NF-κB dependently) can upregulate CB1 and CB2 on human whole blood and peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMC). We also demonstrate upregulation of CB1 and CB2 and increased IL-1β, IL-6 and TNF-α mRNA in blood of patients with MS compared with controls.
Conclusion: The levels of CB1 and CB2 can be upregulated by inflammatory cytokines, which can explain their increase in inflammatory conditions including MS.

She the says that these are depleted from.our cells “as we all know” in the 1930 (?) and the “toxic” vaccine now “activates only the inflammatory parts of the three deadly exogenous families” Evidence? No source for her claim.
She says all disease that is linked to Covid is in fact a dysregulation of the cannabinoid system (no evidence for this claim but we have good evidence that all these symptoms of Corona are due to Sars-Co-2!)
She then claims that retroviruses are injected with the vaccine!!! And that would get worse since the first half of the 20th century?!?
In short: she claims that all gamma retroviruses are responsible for chronic illnesses like MS -> destroying the myelin sheaths (no evidence) and quotes her work from 2009 on this virus and we a know the history of this research project.
She uses again and againpapers that hypothesizes on the etiology of chronic disease and just adds XMRV etc to which isn't even mentioned in this paper.
I had to quit here since this is not useful. Again and again she claims that the shot is responsible for all of this while the is ZERO evidence for this.
It's nice to hypothesize something as a cause of something. But if you don't provide evidence for it it's worthless. It's just in her head. And again she gets a forum for conspiracy claims.
BTW: I did not have the same results with cannabis. It didn't change anything.

 

[wabi-sabi]

Good job @Martin aka paused||M.E.

Very though.

 

[hapl808]

It's just in her head. And again she gets a forum for conspiracy claims.

It's a shame she gets attention and following for her nonsense.

Many of us may be rightfully skeptical of the medical establishment, their influence over institutions like NICE or the FDA, the marginalization of anyone with a chronic illness that can't be explained, the gaslighting of anyone who suffers rare side effects from a medical intervention, etc.

But people like her give ammunition to the establishment for their claims that everything is just mental illness. I've seen outlandish claims any time her name has come up and I don't think she's been able to provide even a modicum of evidence for a single one. It's nonsense all the way down.

Thanks to @Martin aka paused||M.E. for wading through that nonsense so no one else had to do it.

(As for cannabis, I tried THC and CBD and they helped a very small amount with some of my muscle pain and sleep, but both had a rebound effect that made them not worth it for me.)

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

the marginalization of anyone with a chronic illness that can't be explained

The biggest shame - except for her conspiracy theories on Covid-19 and the vaccines - is that she uses desperate chronically ill people for her propaganda. Most of them are not capable of proving her claims and since she is a doctor and always introduced as a well-known researcher it gives her unsupported claims an even bigger impact.

 

[Oliver3]

Mikovits. Does she provide any evidence for her claims?

She claims that Covid-19 is propaganda. The vaccine, she says, is not a vaccine but a synthetical (sic!) chemical which deregulates the endocannabinoid system, immune homeostasis and “all of health: neuroimmune health, cardiovascular health (...)”
I think we have better evidence for the opposite while she does not provide any evidence.


She also says that all publications are now about Covid-19 (meaning that's a propaganda) while this is1. not true (just look at @Pyrrhus recent posts and I myself read a ton of studies that doesn't even mention this virus published 2020/2021 and 2. there is a very non-propaganda reason for the high amount of studies on Covid-19: this virus killed over 5 million ppl worldwide with 8000 new cases every day. What she criticises is how science works. Non-sense!

She quotes a paper saying that retroviruses use TRPV1/2 to enter a host's cell while (I read it) this paper doesn't even mention retroviruses.

“Every chronic disease has a dysregulated microbiome/virome” - we don't have enough evidence for that, that's not consensus in medical literature! I know it's unpopular here to say but don't even have a consensus on the role of the microbiome a itself! This is a new developing knowledge we have to research still.

She says that each vaccination leads to a cytokine storm creating ROS and this creating even more inflammation as more cytokine and that we see young ppl who were given the shots showing these signs (no source) - again, we have no evidence for this.

“Nothing that is called Covid-19 has anything to do with the virus Sars-Co-2” she really says that. So I think every (!) faculty and institution in the world just made a mistake?! Come on!!!

“We see younger and younger ppl with retroviruses” - no source! Does she mean HIV? The general infections have come down worldwide. She further states that all we see now has nothing to do with Sars-Co-2 but the dysregulation of the mechanism of evolutionary virome and it's role for immune regulation. It's not very clear what she refers to but she mentions the “shots” and that there would be a consensus on this by the “unbiased” scientific community (who? The Corona deniers and aluminum hat wearers?)
The paper she quotes is mainly about animals and ERV. Asit comes to human cells IN VITRO the study says

So, the study doesn’t even mention her claims.
She says that the cannabinoid receptors are the only one who can down regulate proinflammatory cytokines (I think she means it bc she says that they stop the inflammation). These cytokines are signaling molecules

The downregulation without medical intervention:

Amy Proal for example researchers the VDR and it's role on downregulation of PIC.

There indeed is some evidence of the role of cannabinoid receptors in chronic inflammatory diseases.


She the says that these are depleted from.our cells “as we all know” in the 1930 (?) and the “toxic” vaccine now “activates only the inflammatory parts of the three deadly exogenous families” Evidence? No source for her claim.
She says all disease that is linked to Covid is in fact a dysregulation of the cannabinoid system (no evidence for this claim but we have good evidence that all these symptoms of Corona are due to Sars-Co-2!)
She then claims that retroviruses are injected with the vaccine!!! And that would get worse since the first half of the 20th century?!?
In short: she claims that all gamma retroviruses are responsible for chronic illnesses like MS -> destroying the myelin sheaths (no evidence) and quotes her work from 2009 on this virus and we a know the history of this research project.
She uses again and againpapers that hypothesizes on the etiology of chronic disease and just adds XMRV etc to which isn't even mentioned in this paper.
I had to quit here since this is not useful. Again and again she claims that the shot is responsible for all of this while the is ZERO evidence for this.
It's nice to hypothesize something as a cause of something. But if you don't provide evidence for it it's worthless. It's just in her head. And again she gets a forum for conspiracy claims.
BTW: I did not have the same results with cannabis. It didn't change anything.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Well, I knew the claim that covid isn't real was stupid. I've had it!! .
Its more the role of the endo canniboid system I feel might be at least partly correct, just from mine and many others. And then we know Hanson says there's a virus at w0rk perhaps and naviaux cell danger response. Well could it be the endocannabinoid bit of her ideas is correct.
I know Ron is doing a dive in the role of dopamine and how it influences the immune system. So maybe it's not such a far out idea. Maybe the endo cannabinoid system is a really important part of our immunity
Sometimes it may be a case of finding the right strain . Did you eat it.
But thanks for saying the unsubstantiated bits and saying there is no evidence....
My waning trust in the medical community through my treatment with m.e. and also the way this pandemic has made we open to new ideas.
I know she's a ...ahem ..special, kind of person. I too baulked at the assertion that covid isn't real etc.
I shouldve made it more clear from my header, that it's the enndicanniboud system that might be a player in our disease.
Like it's interesting to me she's looking at non psychotropic alternatives to THC and I wondered , for one, what's she talking about, and two, is that CB2 receptor really important.
Soz if I got you wound up there Martin.
I was being tongue in cheek with the debunking part. Of course the pandemic claims are bananas, but she's clearly very intelligent and so that keeps me interested, but not invested, just open to new ideas, since there's not much going on for us to use at mo

 

[hapl808]

but she's clearly very intelligent

Agree to disagree.

My waning trust in the medical community through my treatment with m.e. and also the way this pandemic has made we open to new ideas.

We all suffer from this. I'd prefer to depend on the medical community, but since they have abandoned us, we are left to fend for ourselves.

she uses desperate chronically ill people for her propaganda.

This is the frustrating part to me. We're all desperate and willing to try things with scant evidence or follow people with minimal data. We have no choice because the alternative is to just suffer in silence with no hope of reprieve.

But people who prey on that are the worst kind of people. Unfortunately we're stuck with the medical community, full of arrogance and dismissiveness, or the 'alternative' community, full of charlatans and snake oil.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Maybe the endo cannabinoid system is a really important part of our immunity

As I said that is the only part where we have - limited - evidence for. Keep in mind that one study doesn't make any difference if it is not reproduced by others. We need medical consensus and that's a long road.

My waning trust in the medical community through my treatment with m.e. and also the way this pandemic has made we open to new ideas.

That doesn't change that science is the best source of knowledge we have and medical science is in the end an evidence-based science.

I feel your desire for easy answers but I fear it's more complex than this talk treats the topic.

 

[Oliver3]

It's a shame she gets attention and following for her nonsense.

Many of us may be rightfully skeptical of the medical establishment, their influence over institutions like NICE or the FDA, the marginalization of anyone with a chronic illness that can't be explained, the gaslighting of anyone who suffers rare side effects from a medical intervention, etc.

But people like her give ammunition to the establishment for their claims that everything is just mental illness. I've seen outlandish claims any time her name has come up and I don't think she's been able to provide even a modicum of evidence for a single one. It's nonsense all the way down.

Thanks to @Martin aka paused||M.E. for wading through that nonsense so no one else had to do it.

(As for cannabis, I tried THC and CBD and they helped a very small amount with some of my muscle pain and sleep, but both had a rebound effect that made them not worth it for me.)

Thanks for the perspective.
I agree with the gaslighting and I also agree she's a fringe maverick( I'm not wanting to slander).... But the cannibanoid system is talked about by many naturopaths. It just makes me curious.
I mean literally cannabis changes my vascular response , my mood, and just my gut tells me there's smthg in it.
Same with psylobin, it seems to have that same vascular aspect to it.
The first time I took an edible, my faced flushed....that hasn't happened to me in years. No colour in my face and that horrible and neck head pressure went away. It does it everytime.
I' only use it when bad.
To a much lesser degree, diaezepam has a similar effect on my vasculature in my body.
So it just makes me wonder whether it's part if the picture. At least for some of us. I mean abilify doesn't work for everyone etc. So it's the veracity of the endocannabinoid system as an immune modulator that I'm wondering could potentially hold water??
I could never take a woman in a baseball cap seriously anyway! And the robotic delivery is gnawing as it's the idiotic idea that somehow these illnesses were happening already and we mistook it for a virus and the real virus is in the vax.
So sorry if I took energy away with the debunking part.
I guess I'm a way, Martin answered it, in that the endocannabinoid system as a source of health has a lot of unsubstantiated claims to it and the theory seems to be in its infancy.
Just my reaction to cannabis and then seeing the growing amount of naturopaths talking about this made me curious

 

[Oliver3]

As I said that is the only part where we have - limited - evidence for. Keep in mind that one study doesn't make any difference if it is not reproduced by others. We need medical consensus and that's a long road.

That doesn't change that science is the best source of knowledge we have and medical science is in the end an evidence-based science.

I feel your desire for easy answers but I fear it's more complex than this talk treats the topic.

Yes, in my answer below, I apologised for being a bit flippant, just English sarcasm, but it's the endocannabinoid bit that intruigues me.
I think she is intelligent . I also think there may be personality issues at work...again being kind, but you don't wanna leave any stone unturned do you, when you have to become your own advocate and doctor

 

[Oliver3]

Yes, in my answer below, I apologised for being a bit flippant, just English sarcasm, but it's the endocannabinoid bit that intruigues me.
I think she is intelligent . I also think there may be personality issues at work...again being kind, but you don't wanna leave any stone unturned do you, when you have to become your own advocate and doctor

Just re reading my first piece , I think I did say it was perhaps the endocannabinoid system and also the idea that something is breaking them down. Retroviruses/ glyphosate , heavy metals etc....
Its an jntruigung idea to me... Just a gut feeling with absolutely no massive prior knowledge of.
It dl0esnt make it wrong tho and as we all agree..no one is sure, so I will keep an eye out on further endocannabinoid stuff and modulators specifically without the THC that still effect C2

 

[wabi-sabi]

But the cannibanoid system is talked about by many naturopaths. It just makes me curious.

Unfortunately naturopaths aren't known for their solid grasp of science.

https://www.statnews.com/2016/10/20/naturopath-critic-britt-hermes/

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Retroviruses

That theory is overcome for ME by good research

 

[Oliver3]

Unfortunately naturopaths aren't known for their solid grasp of science.

https://www.statnews.com/2016/10/20/naturopath-critic-britt-hermes/

But they are known for treating things that conventional science can't.
As well as being early champions of people with our condition.
Ron himself is looking at herbal remedies and plant ,phyto medicine.
Its wrong to say that there isn't a solid grasp of science.
But naturopaths , good ones, use practice and intuition.
Which is ALL we have anyway.
I really resist people who want to do down a whole way if thinking because if rogue elements.
The amount of time " science" has got things wrong....see never believing our condition as a prime example, makes a statement about science being the real arbiter of ideas as a tad ironical.
Good science and good naturopaths have their place.
There's lots of knowledge in Chinese herbal medicine which is used. That's a form of naturopathy . So I say keep an open mind

 

[Oliver3]

That theory is overcome for ME by good research

I did say, if you read back, that naviauxs ideas of an increasingly toxic environment destroying our were more likely.
But I still don't rule out retroviruses ..because we can't. We don't understand the disease.
Hanson asserted this was a " genius" virus in that it could hide. Why couldn't this be a retrovirus?

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Why couldn't this be a retrovirus?

Because very rigorous and costly effort was made all over the world to identify retroviruses in ME patients. NO one could reproduce these findings.

 

[Oliver3]

Because very rigorous and costly effort was made all over the world to identify retroviruses in ME patients. NO one could reproduce these findings.

No one can find the virus that's supposed to be affecting us tho.
Hence absolutes cannot really be made

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

No one can find the virus that's supposed to be affecting us tho.
Hence absolutes cannot really be made

I said it's a long road. I can't tell you more but those who give you easy and fast answers while there is no robust evidence backing it... I just wanted to give you my thoughts. That's all.

 

[Oliver3]

Because very rigorous and costly effort was made all over the world to identify retroviruses in ME patients. NO one could reproduce these findings.

I didn't ask about about debunking covid 19..
I feel like it's been leaned on a bit to make any other questions look a bit stupid.
I just asked about the veracity of enndocannibinoid systems and and if retroviruses and environment have a role.

 

[Oliver3]

I said it's a long road. I can't tell you more but those who give you easy and fast answers while there is no robust evidence backing it... I just wanted to give you my thoughts. That's all.

I was asking about the cannibanoid system. I'd already established cannabis works a bit for me. Hence my interest.
You answered my question in that there is no science really, it's a new area..
I was trying to be a bit jokey with the debunk..obviously lost in translation.
Anyway, replies appreciated. I guess the answer so far is...no one knows