C3a & C4a test/Lyme vs Mold

[Tiger Lily 813]

Hi all,
I finally got some mold vs lyme testing & would appreciate your insight. My dr. says neither test is too bad, and thus suspects my Epstein Barr more. Which is sky high- but I know that can flourish in the face of other illnesses.
Anyways on the MMP-9 test I got 394 (reference range is less than 984).
And C3a I got 218.7 (reference range is 54-202).
C4a I got 392.4 (range is 0-650).
She said she often sees people have problems with c3/c4 levels in the thousands. But I wanted some more opinions? I did move out of the problem apt a month ago.
Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[maryb]

@Tiger Lily 813
opposite results to me
Low C3a and high C4a (this indicates chronic infection) - I've just been diagnosed with Lyme. Have big mold issues too. My mold tests all came back okay, but I get sick straight away when near it and can detect it from a mile off

 

[Hanna]

I have slighlty elevated C3 and elevated C4 and diagnosed positive for Lyme. Not tested for mold though.

 

[Tiger Lily 813]

Thanks! Do you guys know a good source that explains these values? I thought C3 shows level of infection (like lyme but not mold) and C4 can be from both mold or lyme, so if C3 is ok, then high C4 would mean mold... But I could be wrong. & MMP9 test I know very little of...
Also wondering where my numbers stand compared to fully healthy people.

 

[Thinktank]

I have chronic lyme disease with low c4a.

c3a = 1,06 (norm. 0,58 - 1,90)
c4a = 0,56 LOW (norm. 0,57 - 1,68)

 

[maryb]

how strange I seem to be the opposite of everyone?? oh well par for the course

 

[Valentijn]

how strange I seem to be the opposite of everyone?? oh well par for the course

Mine are both dead normal, right in the center

 

[Tiger Lily 813]

@Valentijn that's great : )
My doc thinks my C3a being a bit above range does not show cause for concern. But I feel like above range sounds like, not-ok to me...

 

[Ema]

This is all I know of c3a and c4a...

http://conqueringthechallenge.blogspot.com/2010/06/when-complement-is-not-compliment-role.html?m=1

Sorry I couldn't be more help. I'm not all that well versed in the tests used by the mold docs.

But I would at least consider that the high c3a is a result of an autoimmune disease.

 

[Tiger Lily 813]

Thank you!! This is actually very helpful <3!!!

 

[Soundthealarm21]

I also have normal c4a and c3a. I have major mold problems and EBV is through the roof.

Just curious, when your doctor says "mold is not that bad", what is "not that bad"?

 

[Tiger Lily 813]

@Soundthealarm21 by normal do you mean you have values similar to me on these tests?
I also have raging Epstein Barr levels. I hear that is common in lyme and mold situations too. I definitely had lyme & bartonella first, a couple years ago, and it seemed controlled.
My doctor works with many biotoxin illnesses, and I think by saying my mold (C4a test) was not that bad, she means compared to what she usually sees. She doesn't think mold- or lyme for that matter, are what is plaguing me according to these tests and some others.
She, and another LLMD, both seem to think I am more viral, and wouldn't benefit from antibiotics, or anti mold treatments (although I still take many natural things to work on detox & immunity, anti fungals, etc).
I'm just trying to make sure she is right

 

[JT1024]

I found my C4a from a year ago and it was sky high (35,613). Can't find the C3a but know it was not elevated like the C4a.

My functional medicine physician referred me to a Lyme Specialist. I had an appointment but had to cancel because my brother was extremely ill and died within 3 weeks.

I'm attaching a powerpoint I found a year ago on C3a and C4a. I am sorry I'm not more up to date. There is significant research out there if you look.

 

[Soundthealarm21]

@Soundthealarm21 by normal do you mean you have values similar to me on these tests?
I also have raging Epstein Barr levels. I hear that is common in lyme and mold situations too. I definitely had lyme & bartonella first, a couple years ago, and it seemed controlled.
My doctor works with many biotoxin illnesses, and I think by saying my mold (C4a test) was not that bad, she means compared to what she usually sees. She doesn't think mold- or lyme for that matter, are what is plaguing me according to these tests and some others.
She, and another LLMD, both seem to think I am more viral, and wouldn't benefit from antibiotics, or anti mold treatments (although I still take many natural things to work on detox & immunity, anti fungals, etc).
I'm just trying to make sure she is right

I don't have all my numbers with me. We've had to destroy a lot of stuff in my house for mold removal. They were well within Labcorp's range and my doctor agreed. From what I remember most everything was fine. Some of the other inflammatory stuff (I think TGF-Beta and MMP-9) were highly elevated and my MSH was low. My ADH and osmolality were also out of sync.

C4a is not a direct test for mold. It is supposed to be a test to try and determine if you have current and ongoing exposure. Which would not tell you if your mold levels in your body are high. My C4a levels did not correspond to the current and ongoing exposure I've been having for at least the last 3 years. We found out a few weeks ago the house was high for Aspergillus and Stachybotrys (highly toxic), yet my C4a blood tests did not indicate that I had ongoing exposure even though I obviously did.

Has your doctor ever had you do the urine mycotoxin test from Real Time Labs? That's the best test we have available currently. Its limitations are that it's only going to show you what your body is expelling and not necessarily what is in your body as a whole. But, as I said, it's the best we have now.

 

[Tiger Lily 813]

I found my C4a from a year ago and it was sky high (35,613). Can't find the C3a but know it was not elevated like the C4a.

My functional medicine physician referred me to a Lyme Specialist. I had an appointment but had to cancel because my brother was extremely ill and died within 3 weeks.

I'm attaching a powerpoint I found a year ago on C3a and C4a. I am sorry I'm not more up to date. There is significant research out there if you look.

So very sorry for your loss!!!
I appreciate your sharing the PowerPoint. It seems consistent with what my doc was saying that my #'s are low. Also good to see lupus included as, I test negative, but my Grandma had it & Ive always been wondering if I might have it as well. Though again, I test lower. Thank you <3

 

[Tiger Lily 813]

I don't have all my numbers with me. We've had to destroy a lot of stuff in my house for mold removal. They were well within Labcorp's range and my doctor agreed. From what I remember most everything was fine. Some of the other inflammatory stuff (I think TGF-Beta and MMP-9) were highly elevated and my MSH was low. My ADH and osmolality were also out of sync.

C4a is not a direct test for mold. It is supposed to be a test to try and determine if you have current and ongoing exposure. Which would not tell you if your mold levels in your body are high. My C4a levels did not correspond to the current and ongoing exposure I've been having for at least the last 3 years. We found out a few weeks ago the house was high for Aspergillus and Stachybotrys (highly toxic), yet my C4a blood tests did not indicate that I had ongoing exposure even though I obviously did.

Has your doctor ever had you do the urine mycotoxin test from Real Time Labs? That's the best test we have available currently. Its limitations are that it's only going to show you what your body is expelling and not necessarily what is in your body as a whole. But, as I said, it's the best we have now.

Thank you, that is good to know, yet frustrating! I've been told the C3/C4 test was king, and the urine test is less significant... I have mainly been reading the Shoemaker testing guidelines. I'm bugged out this test can be flat out wrong well at least I'm out of that apartment I guess? I have some specific questions & will message you soon. I'm very sorry to hear about your home!

 

[JaimeS]

Both of mine are low, and KDM still suspects Lyme. Here's some stuff you might find helpful:

from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19140878 ... split into sections for our ME brains, but otherwise more or less verbatim:

Complement split products C3a and C4a are reportedly elevated in patients with acute Lyme disease. We have now examined these immunologic markers in patients with chronic Lyme disease compared to appropriate disease controls. The study population consisted of:

• 29 healthy controls
• 445 patients with chronic Lyme disease
• 11 patients with systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE)
  
• six patients with AIDS

The Lyme disease patients were divided according to :

• predominant musculoskeletal symptoms (324 patients)
  
• predominant neurologic symptoms (121 patients)

C3a and C4a levels were measured by radioimmunoassay.

• All patients with chronic Lyme disease and AIDS had normal C3a levels compared to controls
• patients with SLE had significantly increased levels of this marker
• Patients with predominant musculoskeletal symptoms of Lyme disease and AIDS patients had significantly increased levels of C4a compared to either controls, patients with predominant neurologic symptoms of Lyme disease or SLE patients.
  
• Response to antibiotic therapy in chronic Lyme disease was associated with a significant decrease in the C4a level
• lack of response was associated with a significant increase in this marker.
  
• In contrast, AIDS patients had persistently increased C4a levels despite antiretroviral therapy.
  
• Lyme patients with positive single-photon emission computed tomographic (SPECT) scans had significantly lower C4a levels compared to Lyme patients with normal SPECT scan results.
  
• Patients with predominant musculoskeletal symptoms of Lyme disease have normal C3a and increased C4a levels. This pattern differs from the increase in both markers seen in acute Lyme disease, and C4a changes correlate with the response to therapy in chronic Lyme disease.

C4a appears to be a valuable immunologic marker in patients with persistent symptoms of Lyme disease.

 

[sarah darwins]

My mold tests all came back okay, but I get sick straight away when near it and can detect it from a mile off

Are you hyper-sensitive to the smell of mold? That's how I am. It's amazing how many supermarkets have moldy food somewhere on the shelves (or perhaps not so amazing). There are times when I walk into one and have to walk straight back out because the smell is overwhelming and nauseating. If I'm with anyone, they say "What smell?"

 

[RML]

I got my test results back last week and they included C3a and C4a tests, which I never had done before and know nothing about.

My results were:
C3a : 0.92 (0.58 - 1.92)
C4a: 0.32 (0.57 - 1.68)

Last year at my first appointment, I tested positive for Lyme (LTT) and for mold (Aspergillus Niger).

After getting the results, and seeing the C4a result in red, I did some googling. Now my brain these days is not up for understanding complicated stuff like journal articles and studies etc. But I picked up what I could. It seems in relation to Lyme, C4a is usually quite high, so I stumped about the low results and what it could mean. I didn't find much on low c4a and lyme/mold.

I was actually thinking of making a topic about it here and I just came across this thread. I will have a look at some of the links and info already posted here later on.

 

[JaimeS]

Yeah, honestly it seems they're dysregulated in chronic infection. It may well be yet another case of "early infection, high; later infection, low".

I was getting a bit confused so I made a wee chart. Perhaps it will be useful to others:

It would help if those who did not state what their diagnoses were could fill that in, but what I'm gathering from this is that people with Lyme tend to have lowered C4 (at least, in this VERY limited sample.) Just goes to show it's good to gather your data, because I really didn't think I'd find any pattern at all.

-J