Brain fog that lasts after resistance training

[dyllanmurphy]

First off, disclaimer, I don't have CFS, since fatigue is not one of my symptoms, but I am undiagnosed with cognitive, joint, muscle issues, trouble sleeping, etc. - many of the same symptoms that occur in CFS, fibro, and Lyme patients.

One symptom in particular is baffling. I get crippling brain fog (moreso than the baseline level) after resistance training (weight lifting) which lasts for 2-5 days afterwards. The weird thing is, this doesn't happen with cardio - in fact, I find that cardio helps me think more clearly.

Even Lyme patients don't seem to follow this pattern, it's weird. It seems more typical of CFS / fibro patients, but even then, brain fog seems to be correlated with any type of physical activity, it's not different with weight-training vs. cardio.

Any clue as to what family of conditions / syndromes this one particular symptom falls most closely under?

I think it's related to inflammation, since my condition seems to improve at times by taking anti-inflammatories. Plus, the body produces inflammatory cytokines in response to micro-injury to the muscles which occurs after lifting, which may add to baseline levels of some sort of inflammatory process. But I have no clue what is going on, since I can't seem to find any existing condition which matches this pattern.

 

[Heartl]

In my 20s I used to lift weights. This (brain inflammation) was my only symptom. I had to space my workouts out every 3 days because it took me that long to recover. I was first diagnosed with CFS in my late 20s. I’m now 53 and am very sick from years of pushing myself. My advice would be try not to push yourself. Your body is giving you a warning signal. Best of health to you

 

[ryan31337]

@dyllanmurphy its splitting hairs, but I wonder if you do have CFS and are mistakenly conflating fatigue with somnolence?

CFS for many of us isn't about feeling sleepy (somnolence). Speaking personally, I have the exact same response to resistance training and cardio as you. A day or 2 after resistance training I am not sleepy, but I am fatigued. Everything is harder, muscles tire quicker, cognition is slowed, joints hurt, lymph nodes swell, motivation is low etc. But I cannot sleep any more than usual...this IS the cardinal fatigue/PEM symptom of CFS as I understand it.

I would recommend monitoring your autonomic nervous system during these episodes. Heart rate, heart rate variability & blood pressure are easy to do. Consider how they respond with orthostasis (standing up), look into a Poor Man's Tilt Table Test. You may find something like POTS is a better fit for you if you really think fatigue and immune issues aren't present.

 

[dyllanmurphy]

In my 20s I used to lift weights. This (brain inflammation) was my only symptom. I had to space my workouts out every 3 days because it took me that long to recover. I was first diagnosed with CFS in my late 20s. I’m now 53 and am very sick from years of pushing myself. My advice would be try not to push yourself. Your body is giving you a warning signal. Best of health to you

I'm sorry to hear that, thank you for sharing your experience. I also thought about weightlifting as putting our bodies under stress, and under normal conditions the stress/response/adaptation cycle is a good thing, but for a subset of people the additional stress may be an excess burden on the system (perhaps after infection or stress from work / life).

 

[dyllanmurphy]

@dyllanmurphy its splitting hairs, but I wonder if you do have CFS and are mistakenly conflating fatigue with somnolence?

CFS for many of us isn't about feeling sleepy (somnolence). Speaking personally, I have the exact same response to resistance training and cardio as you. A day or 2 after resistance training I am not sleepy, but I am fatigued. Everything is harder, muscles tire quicker, cognition is slowed, joints hurt, lymph nodes swell, motivation is low etc. But I cannot sleep any more than usual...this IS the cardinal fatigue/PEM symptom of CFS as I understand it.

I would recommend monitoring your autonomic nervous system during these episodes. Heart rate, heart rate variability & blood pressure are easy to do. Consider how they respond with orthostasis (standing up), look into a Poor Man's Tilt Table Test. You may find something like POTS is a better fit for you if you really think fatigue and immune issues aren't present.

I have had fatigue rarely, mostly associated with colds/viruses, but it's gone away thankfully. Fatigue is one of those symptoms that I've never had issue with. I have felt it before, so I know what it's like - not sleepiness but just a profound inertia mixed with malaise and a "sick" type feeling.

I definitely experience what you describe with the cognitive stuff, however. Post resistance training, I feel much slower mentally, and very unmotivated - usually, sleep problems accompany this brain fog. The sleeplessness feels like agitation mixed with heartburn. But my energy levels (ability to move around) are fine.

I have gotten tested for POTs by an expert, no dice there. Though I got heart palpitations frequently. I haven't worn one of those heart monitors, that might be something to consider.

It wasn't clear from your post - so cardio makes you feel better? Or do both cardio and resistance training mess you up?

 

[ryan31337]

It wasn't clear from your post - so cardio makes you feel better? Or do both cardio and resistance training mess you up?

Its been a sliding scale for me, in better years I have been able to cope with gently ramping cardio and felt strong benefit. After a relapse in my early 20s just the trip to the pool, getting changed and showering was enough to induce PEM. Eventually I managed to actually swim and after a year or 2 of gradual increment I was swimming 1km, 3x a week, with minimal issues after. Clearly whatever disease process was going on had gone into remission, but it was still there, if I tried something more intensive or to be active all day long, I would still get PEM.

At that time I was able to cope with some resistance training during those times, though it was always more demanding and more likely to induce PEM. In the past few years unfortunately things have gotten much worse again with other complications, so all exercise is now out of the question.

One thing I had noticed is a strong correlation with DOMS, if I got that delayed muscle soreness I would definitely get bad PEM with it. Also the larger the muscle group, the worse the PEM. Similar to my experience with the cardio, if I started low and slow I could eventually see gains. Start on a new muscle group and bam, big problems.

A few things worth mentioning:
I was worked up by a Neuromuscular clinic for Mitochondrial disease with muscle biopsy etc. all negative. I do however have confirmed diagnoses of Small Fibre Neuropathy & POTS, which probably play a large part of many of my symptoms. I have also recently got a diagnosis of Spondyloarthropathy, which perhaps underlies the SFN and other issues.

 

[ryan31337]

It could well be you're well conditioned and at the lucky end of the spectrum, as I got myself to twice in 24 years of whatever this disease is, before I crashed again.

Its probably a bit naive but I tend to see most of the overlapping syndromic symptoms (CFS, Fibro, Lyme, POTS etc.) as a result of autonomic dysfunction. Its pretty well established that the effects of dysautonomia can be somewhat off-set through conditioning, to increase muscle mass, blood volume etc. As you struggle with whatever actual disease underlies these issues you become deconditioned and the effects become more apparent.

That's part of the reason why I think it'd be interesting for you to track your autonomic function. Many of us will find that a tilt test on a given afternoon, well rested after plenty of hydration, will be normal. But do it properly, first thing in the morning before drinking, on a day after you've hit the gym and the story will often be quite different.

 

[dyllanmurphy]

It could well be you're well conditioned and at the lucky end of the spectrum, as I got myself to twice in 24 years of whatever this disease is, before I crashed again.

Its probably a bit naive but I tend to see most of the overlapping syndromic symptoms (CFS, Fibro, Lyme, POTS etc.) as a result of autonomic dysfunction. Its pretty well established that the effects of dysautonomia can be somewhat off-set through conditioning, to increase muscle mass, blood volume etc. As you struggle with whatever actual disease underlies these issues you become deconditioned and the effects become more apparent.

That's part of the reason why I think it'd be interesting for you to track your autonomic function. Many of us will find that a tilt test on a given afternoon, well rested after plenty of hydration, will be normal. But do it properly, first thing in the morning before drinking, on a day after you've hit the gym and the story will often be quite different.

That's interesting, with these sort of tests, I wondered whether I should go in on a "normal" day or stress everything to the max and see if anything objective can be picked up. With your comment, I'm thinking the latter might be useful.

I agree about the autonomic dysfunction - it might be that this "overlap" you speak of is due to this common thread.

But I've never been as bad as you've described with the PEM to the point that I have trouble getting out of bed / showering (though I find that once I hit the weights and the massive brain fog sets in, taking hot showers tends to make the brain fog even worse, and food sensitivity gets worse as well).

I've been looking for an infectious cause, but I haven't gotten any positive hits as of yet. Maybe the solution is just to really de-stress and heal the body for a long time. I got no clue.

 

[ryan31337]

That's interesting, with these sort of tests, I wondered whether I should go in on a "normal" day or stress everything to the max and see if anything objective can be picked up. With your comment, I'm thinking the latter might be useful.

Yes, that's generally how I've approached testing. Similar thing happened with Cardiopulmonary Exercise Tests (CPET aka VO2Max), if I did the study well rested I would be borderline normal, if I did it whilst already fatigued it was abnormal. Nearly everyone will eventually moderate their activity (pacing) to avoid the subsequent suffering, which seems to limit the severity shown on these sorts of tests.

Maybe the solution is just to really de-stress and heal the body for a long time. I got no clue.

Unfortunately nobody has a good grasp on these sorts of problems. In the absence of some clear, treatable disease the best thing you can do is establish a physical and mental activity baseline that doesn't cause you problems and stick to it. With some luck you'll be able to very gently increase that baseline and achieve a recovery, which might last for a few years at a time until another insult brings it back down, or if you're lucky, indefinitely.

Struggling with hot showers, poor digestion and the agitated 'tired but wired' feeling are both really common with dysautonomia.

 

[panckage]

If I'm not mistaken @Hip has a similar issues where his PEM is cognitive only and not fatigue

 

[dyllanmurphy]

@Hip any ideas? Or specifically, when did you come down with this symptom / complex of symptoms and did you ever get any clarity on it? Anything help with symptoms?

 

[Hip]

First off, disclaimer, I don't have CFS, since fatigue is not one of my symptoms,

Interestingly enough, although nearly all the defining criteria for ME/CFS require substantial fatigue as a symptom, the international consensus criteria (ICC) does not. So you could qualify for an ME/CFS diagnosis under the ICC if you have the requisite symptoms.

But if you do not follow the standard pattern for ME/CFS (or even if you do), it's a good idea to go through the list of other diseases which have similar symptoms to ME/CFS, in case you might have one of those. For info on diseases that have similar symptoms to ME/CFS, see: AAFP ME/CFS Differential Diagnosis, Dr Myhill's ME/CFS Differential Diagnosis, Diseases similar to ME/CFS and ME Association differential diagnosis(from the ME Association Purple Book).

I get crippling brain fog (moreso than the baseline level) after resistance training (weight lifting) which lasts for 2-5 days afterwards.

In my case I do not get much PEM or brain fog from physical exercise.