Adrenaline surges?

[Lucinda]

Hi, I am new to this forum. *waves*

I have a question though. I developed CFS about 6 years ago. At first I had very typical CFS symptoms that kept on getting worse. However, after about a year, when my symptoms were at their worst (and I was stuck in bed and unable to think clearly most of the time), I started experiencing another problem.

Even though I was so ill I was mainly confined to bed at the time, a doctor had told me I needed to get myself out of bed and walk everyday, no matter what. So that is what I did. I would use any amount of caffeine/sugar/alcohol to get myself out of bed and out of the door. I would even stress myself out by playing loud music (I was sensitive to noise so this created major stress), talking, etc. And through doing this I did get myself out of the door and forced myself to walk, no matter how much my body complained.

Looking back this was obviously a very stupid thing to do.

Anyway, I then started to develop this problem with what I think may be adrenaline surges. It's almost like my body panicked at being forced to move, and would go into panic mode. I would become jittery/on edge/agitated to an extreme (with the distressing feelings centred around my heart area). It was intolerable. At first I think this only happened when I forced myself out of bed, but soon it started happening all of the time!

I would constantly polarise between being so exhausted I could barely move, to getting one of these 'surges' where I had to move! I would have to exercise, often for quite a while, otherwise it would get worse and the torment was unbearable.

Doctors seemed to have no idea why this was happening, so I turned to alternative therapy. In the end I found acupuncture helped, and I have been having acupuncture ever since.

However, acupuncture has never totally got rid of the problem. It has reduced it a lot, and I no longer swing so wildly any more. Instead what I experience now are 'fatigued days' when I am pretty much housebound, and days where I get these 'surges' where I am still fatigued, but I have this jittery energy where I feel constantly, I don't know - hyper aroused? Over stimulated? Like I'm really on edge for no reason at all and can't calm down no matter what I do. The only thing I can do is do a bit of walking, do a bit of yoga, and basically wait until I get worn out, and inevitably crash (usually the next day).

So my question is - does anyone else experience this or maybe know what may cause it? And what things may help?

My doctor has currently prescribed me propranolol (40g tablets to be taken twice a day). I also have troubles with breathing and have a fast heart rate, and she concluded that my problems may be a result of too much adrenaline and that propranolol may help. I'm not sure though, I'm always very wary of prescription drugs as I am hyper sensitive.

 

[Sallysblooms]

The neurotransmitters really take a hit when we are sick and stressed. My doctor has had me on natural supplements for them. It is fantastic. I can't tell if that is your problem, but it sure could be.

 

[Lucinda]

What supplements did you take, Sallysblooms?

 

[coxy]

That is the exact same thing that happened to me when i tried the lightning process therapy.
I tried my best to explain it on this forum at the time, but you have just described it perfectly. I was forcing myself to exercise and trying to do exactly as i had been told. I felt i improved physically for up to 3 months but was stuck in this complete hyper state, literally shaking & heart going bananas. I gradually came down from that hyper state and felt unable to continue with the LP, as i was warned it could be doing me a lot of harm in the long run. I'm now back to where i was before doing the process, with worse cognitive problems.

 

[Lucinda]

Yes I know a bit about the Lightning Process and have heard they encourage you to push yourself. So I guess you was doing a similar thing to me - pushing yourself to move when you really was not well enough.

I also tremble, and I have a fast heart rate and get palpitations.

Did all of this go then when you stopped trying to push yourself? I do not push myself anymore, but I still get it unfortunately.

In any case, I'm sorry the LP was so disastrous for you. It's a strange programme. I know someone personally who was cured by it, and yet I have also heard of countless people who have got worse after doing it.

 

[taniaaust1]

Ive got that state too at times.. its horrid and will end up making me go and go until i crash with complete exhaustion.

I had an episode of it the other day and didnt sleep for 42 hrs due to it.. i was hyper yet couldnt do anything (so just sat unable to rest). It really mentally messed me up. What seems to have triggered off the incident of it I had the other day was I'd worked my brain too hard while working on the wiki here. So obviously it isnt only over doing it with the physical activity which can cause it but also too much mental stimulation.

 

[Lucinda]

Yes it also stops me sleeping. I don't think I've ever gone 42 hours without sleeping before, but I think I've come close to that.

It is horrible. It is like you are hyper and exhausted at the same time! So strange. I'm sorry to hear other people get this, but at the same time it is comforting to know I'm not alone.

Yes I agree mental stimulation can also trigger it. From what I've noticed, it can be triggered by physically pushing myself, mental activity, and also emotional stuff. Wanting to do things, that desire to get up and live, can trigger it, as well as any form of stress, worry or anxiety, no matter how small!

Have you found anything helps it, taniaaust1?

 

[coxy]

Yes I know a bit about the Lightning Process and have heard they encourage you to push yourself. So I guess you was doing a similar thing to me - pushing yourself to move when you really was not well enough.

I also tremble, and I have a fast heart rate and get palpitations.

Did all of this go then when you stopped trying to push yourself? I do not push myself anymore, but I still get it unfortunately.

In any case, I'm sorry the LP was so disastrous for you. It's a strange programme. I know someone personally who was cured by it, and yet I have also heard of countless people who have got worse after doing it.

yes i know someone who has recovered to, that's what encouraged me to try it.

I find now i still get a similar thing but it comes out more as anger/temper, it happens when the children have pushed me into complete exhaustion. I'm not a happy hyper person at the moment.
We are actually dealing with it happening to our youngest child(6yrs) at the moment, he is being seen on friday by a paeditrician, he has lots of similar symptoms as the other 3 of us in our house with me/cfs. If xmrv doesn't pan out, i've no idea what is going on with all of us. The first thing i think i will say to the paeditrician (who we know well now)as i walk through the door is, i've come hoping and praying that you are not going to say this is the same illness. Wish us luck please!

 

[taniaaust1]

Have you found anything helps it, taniaaust1?

No.. i tried taking xanax but that didnt work on it at all. (Xanax usually works excellent on me with anxiety but not at all on this hyper/wired state).

Best advice i could give is to pace oneself properly and not go over doing it.

 

[taniaaust1]

I find now i still get a similar thing but it comes out more as anger/temper, it happens when the children have pushed me into complete exhaustion. I'm not a happy hyper person at the moment.

ohhh.. interestingly you say that.. as i was having anger attacks during that state the other day, severe anger (I put it down to possibly the testosterone i'm trialing but dont really know). umm i forgot about the anger i had the other day with that state till you brought that up here (guess psychologically i didnt want to remember that!).

best luck at paeditricians.

 

[forgottenstar]

I know how you feel...when Im very stressed out, even though Im physically and mentally exhausted, I get these energy surges where I just can't sit still. I wind up having to go to the gym to exercise the energy out of me and I inevitably crash. (Im actually having one of those weeks where my energy is through the roof yet all I want to do is sleep) Xanex helps me with my anxiety/panic attacks (it also puts me to sleep..which is probably why it helps so much...) but I haven't found anything to take when I get like this. Ive always been fidigty, but these are the worst. I feel like I need to run a marathon to get back down to "normal".

 

[richvank]

Adrenaline (epinephrine) and excitotoxicity

Hi, all.

For what it's worth, I'm going to suggest what has gone on biochemically in the scenarios you have been describing.

First, one of the features of ME/CFS is dysfunction of the HPA (hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal) axis. The result of this is that the body is not able to secrete cortisol in the proper amounts and with the right timing to cope with stress of all sorts. I have suggested a mechanism for this dysfunction that involves depletion of glutathione in the hypothalamus and pituitary. Dr. de Meirleir, on the other hand, has found that hydrogen sulfide production by dysbiotic bacteria in the gut is responsible for disrupting the operation of the hypothalamus and causing this dysfunction. Perhaps both of these mechanisms occur, we don't know yet.

If a person continues to undergo stress (and it could be physical stress from exercise as well as other kinds of stress) and the cortisol is not able to be secreted properly, then adrenaline (epinephrine) secretion will be substituted in its place to promote your survival. However, adrenaline does not substitute exactly for cortisol, so that this does not work very well. In addition, the extra adrenaline has to be metabolized (broken down or detoxed). Particularly in people who have inherited certain polymorphisms in the COMT enzyme and the GST enzymes, the metabolism of adrenaline can cause what is called redox cycling. This involves production of oxidizing free radicals, which raises the oxidative stress and further depletes glutathione.

Glutathione depletion in the astrocytes in the brain causes a partial block in the Krebs cycle in the mitochondria, and that lowers the production of ATP. ATP is needed to power the import of glutamate from the synapses, and its conversion to glutamine, for recycling to the neurons. Glutamate is the main excitatory neurotransmitter in the brain. The result of this is that too many glutamate molecules remain in the synaptic gaps between the neurons. They therefore stimulate the NMDA receptors on these neurons too much, and that is what produces the excitotoxicity.

The symptoms of excitotoxicity include the "wired" feeling you have described, as well as anxiety, insomnia, and hypersensitivity of the senses.

Dr. Amy Yasko has suggested a list of supplements that can help to calm excitotoxicity. These include GABA, theanine, magnesium, taurine, grape seed extract, pycnogenol, progesterone, Valerian root, and jujube. She is also coming out with a Glutamate/GABA spray in the future, that will combine some of these supplements.

In the long run, the solution to this problem is to raise glutathione, and in order to do that, it is necessary to lift the partial block in the methylation cycle. Information about this can be found at www.cfsresearch.org

I hope this is helpful.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Lucinda]

Thank you so much Rich.

Unfortunately, I do not have a scientific or medical background so I do not understand this (plus I have issues with brain fog making this even harder!).

I would like to research what you say more though. You say Dr Amy Yasko has a programme to treat the condition? Could you give me a link as to where she recommends these supplements? And how can I know that it is 'excitotoxicity' causing it - is there a test? Bear in mind I am from the UK.

Thank you so much for this info. When I have the energy I am going to do as much research on this as possible and try my best to understand. I have been desperate to understand what is going on with me for years now. Being assured that other people do suffer this (and I am not alone, like I felt like I was), and then being given this information is such a relief and blessing.

 

[taniaaust1]

Dr. Amy Yasko has suggested a list of supplements that can help to calm excitotoxicity. These include GABA, theanine, magnesium, taurine, grape seed extract, pycnogenol, progesterone, Valerian root, and jujube. She is also coming out with a Glutamate/GABA spray in the future, that will combine some of these supplements.

Progesterone and magnesium.. doesnt help me any at all.

 

[*GG*]

Sounds like you spend a lot on Acupuncture. Have you heard of Community Acupuncture? It can save you a lot of money.

FYI

 

[Lucinda]

No I haven't heard of it. I'll look it up.

Tbh I doubt I'll leave my acupuncturist to see a different one though, partly as I think my condition is pretty complicated (my current acupuncturist is the only therapist I have ever come across who really seems to take on board what is going on, and hasn't just assumed I'm anxious, nothing more), and partly as he gives me a lot of much needed emotional support.

 

[richvank]

Thank you so much Rich.

Unfortunately, I do not have a scientific or medical background so I do not understand this (plus I have issues with brain fog making this even harder!).

I would like to research what you say more though. You say Dr Amy Yasko has a programme to treat the condition? Could you give me a link as to where she recommends these supplements? And how can I know that it is 'excitotoxicity' causing it - is there a test? Bear in mind I am from the UK.

Thank you so much for this info. When I have the energy I am going to do as much research on this as possible and try my best to understand. I have been desperate to understand what is going on with me for years now. Being assured that other people do suffer this (and I am not alone, like I felt like I was), and then being given this information is such a relief and blessing.

Hi, Lucinda.

Dr. Yasko's main website is at www.dramyyasko.com
She sells her book and supplements at www.holisticheal.com Her book discusses her treatment program.
She has a discussion forum at www.cfsnutrigenomics.com and a lot of information is presented there, also.
I understand that mandimart in the UK offers some of her supplements for sale.

I hope this is helpful.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[BEG]

Hi, all. For what it's worth, I'm going to suggest what has gone on biochemically in the scenarios you have been describing.
The symptoms of excitotoxicity include the "wired" feeling you have described, as well as anxiety, insomnia, and hypersensitivity of the senses.

Thanks, Rich. Intuitively, I knew that it is adrenaline getting me to my doctor's appts. especially when I need to rush, and it's adrenaline when I'm in a very bad emotionally stressful state. Klonopin works for me along with distancing myself from the problem that caused it. Deep breathing and focusing on a phrase while repeating it over and over is also calming.

I wanted to ask, however, would you recommend that a CFS patient not take an SNRI? I currently am prescribed one. I feel some of that hyper state after taking my dosage which is small and have considered going off it because of that reason. If I'm correct, an SNRI does increase epinephrine in the body, correct?

 

[Lucinda]

Thanks Rich

Which book should I try? I'm really looking for something as simple as possible here. I have big problems with concentation.

Or do you think it would be safe for me to just try the supplements you suggested now, without reading more up on it?

The link to the forum doesn't work by the way.

Also, is any of this similar to Dr Myhill's approach? I know she talks about the methylation cycle: http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/CFS_-_The_Methylation_Cycle

However she recommends different supplements. I mention her as she is a doctor in the UK, so it would be easier for me to do her tests/follow her suggestions, then to look into Dr. Yasko.

 

[Mya Symons]

Anyway, I then started to develop this problem with what I think may be adrenaline surges. It's almost like my body panicked at being forced to move, and would go into panic mode. I would become jittery/on edge/agitated to an extreme (with the distressing feelings centred around my heart area). It was intolerable. At first I think this only happened when I forced myself out of bed, but soon it started happening all of the time!

I would constantly polarise between being so exhausted I could barely move, to getting one of these 'surges' where I had to move! I would have to exercise, often for quite a while, otherwise it would get worse and the torment was unbearable.

Doctors seemed to have no idea why this was happening, so I turned to alternative therapy. In the end I found acupuncture helped, and I have been having acupuncture ever since.

However, acupuncture has never totally got rid of the problem. It has reduced it a lot, and I no longer swing so wildly any more. Instead what I experience now are 'fatigued days' when I am pretty much housebound, and days where I get these 'surges' where I am still fatigued, but I have this jittery energy where I feel constantly, I don't know - hyper aroused? Over stimulated? Like I'm really on edge for no reason at all and can't calm down no matter what I do. The only thing I can do is do a bit of walking, do a bit of yoga, and basically wait until I get worn out, and inevitably crash (usually the next day).

So my question is - does anyone else experience this or maybe know what may cause it? And what things may help?

My doctor has currently prescribed me propranolol (40g tablets to be taken twice a day). I also have troubles with breathing and have a fast heart rate, and she concluded that my problems may be a result of too much adrenaline and that propranolol may help. I'm not sure though, I'm always very wary of prescription drugs as I am hyper sensitive.

Yes, in the past I have experienced something like the adrenaline surges you talk about. However, it was not CFS, it was undiagnosed Hashimoto's Disease. Do you have any thyroid issues? Hashimoto's is an autoimmune thyroid disease where the immune system attacks and kills the thyroid and replaces thyroid tissues with immune T-cells. In the beginning stages of the disease the thyroid, in reponse to being damaged, swells up and kicks out more thyroid hormone then usual. During these times a person would feel stressed and energetic. As time goes by more of the thyroid dies and a person would go back and forth from feeling tired and sick to feeling that "adrenaline rush." Eventually so much of the thyroid dies that the person with Hashimoto's would no longer experience the hyper/stressed part of Hashimoto's and would need to start taking thyroid medicine. Many people with CFS and/or FMS have thyroid issues. If you haven't already had your thyroid tested you should ask your doctor for a TSH, T3, and Thyroid Peroxidase Antibody Test. Also, if you have not been to a rheumatologist for testing to rule out other illnesses maybe it would be a good idea to get a referral and get checked out for piece of mind.

This is just from experience. I don't have any medical background

Oops--Somehow I missed RichVanks post. I did not know that CFS could do this too us also. I always blamed it on my thyroid.

I am curious. Are there doctors on this forum answering these questions or a lot of very intellegent people who know their stuff? Sometimes, after reading the posts on this site I sit and wonder how the CDC could think such a group of articulate intellegent people could be "hysterical" or "maladjusted"? It makes no sense.

Wow do I get off subject--ADD? .