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"You and yours" BBC phone in on "chronic fatigue" -26 sept

Countrygirl

Senior Member
Messages
5,476
Location
UK
Apparently sticking it up yer bum is all the rage in the medical cannabis underworld @Countrygirl. There are special medicinal weed varieties for such an application, or so I was informed by someone who seemed to know an awful lot about it.
I hope nodded politely as I walked away backwards.

Thank you so much for the advice @Mrs Sowester .

If the promised 'package' comes through the letter box, it sounds as it I will need the help of a mirror............

..........not sure if I still have the dexterity though...............:(
 

Hilary

Senior Member
Messages
190
Location
UK
Also Crawly goes down the line of the mind body connection and how we shouldn't be separating physical and psychological, in which case why do we bother with treatments for MS or cancer when we could just stand on pieces of paper shouting stop at the symptoms.
:lol: haha this made me laugh - conjured up a vision of millions of us all over the world, standing on our bits of paper and shouting STOP!!:eek: at ourselves..
(and I speak as one who has done the LP, done the shouting - including in the changing room of Marble Arch M & S..- and got MUCH WORSE..............:ill:)
 

lilpink

Senior Member
Messages
988
Location
UK
Interesting info from the Linbury Trust

MEDICAL:
For around 10 years, commencing in the early 1990s, Linbury funded more than 40 research projects into various aspects of CFS / ME (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome / Myalgic Encephalomyelitis). This pioneering programme of sustained support led to great strides in the acceptance and understanding of this condition by both the medical establishment and general public.

More info: http://www.linburytrust.org.uk/

I'm not keeping up..so apols if I'm being dense. People do know that the Linbury Trust fund BPS studies don't they? Wouldn't want anyone thinking they were kosher.
 

KME

Messages
91
Location
Ireland
Following on from numerous patients describing that increasing exercise as part of either their GET or CBT made them worse, Prof Crawley explained that GET is “absolutely not” about increasing exercise, but about reducing it:



“In graded exercise therapy, people sometimes think that we’re trying to increase exercise. That’s absolutely not the case. To begin with, the very important thing about graded exercise is to reduce over-exercise. We all agree that over-exercise is a problem. So actually graded exercise is about reducing that.” (Prof Esther Crawley speaking on “Call You and Yours: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and ME” http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b095ptl7 approx. 37:40)



I find it very uncomfortable when patients’ correct understanding of GET or other aspects of their illness or care is presented to the media as a misperception. While setting a baseline that is not characterised by boom-bust pattern is generally included at the beginning of GET programmes, the suggestion that in GET we’re “absolutely not” “trying to increase exercise” is just a lie. Was it meant to undermine the credibility of the patients’ experiences described throughout the programme?



Compare to the NICE guidelines’ description of GET p.247-8:

“People with mild or moderate CFS/ME should be offered GET that includes

planned increases in the duration of physical activity. The intensity should then

be increased when appropriate, leading to aerobic exercise (that is, exercise that

increases the pulse rate). [1.6.2.13]



Progressing with GET

When the low-intensity exercise can be sustained for 5 days out of 7 (usually

accompanied by a reduction in perceived exertion), the duration should be

reviewed and increased, if appropriate, by up to 20%. For example, a 5-minute

walk becomes 6 minutes, or a person with severe CFS/ME sits up in bed for a

longer period, or walks to another room more often. The aim is to reach 30

minutes of low-intensity exercise. [1.6.2.17]


When the duration of low-intensity exercise has reached 30 minutes, the intensity

of the exercise may be increased gradually up to an aerobic heart rate zone, as

assessed individually by a healthcare professional. A rate of 50–70% maximum

heart rate is recommended. [1.6.2.18]


Exercise intensity should be measured using a heart rate monitor, so that the

person knows they are within their target heart rate zone. [1.6.2.19]

If agreed GET goals are met, exercise duration and intensity may be increased

further if appropriate, if other daily activities can also be sustained, and in

agreement with the person with CFS/ME. [1.6.2.20]”


The description of GET below is from a 2017 paper co-authored by Prof Crawley, entitled Practical management of chronic fatigue syndrome or myalgic encephalomyelitis in childhood (behind paywall here http://adc.bmj.com/content/102/10/981.long):


“The GET programme starts at a low intensity. Walking is the easiest exercise to access as it is functional and cheap. The walk duration is initially set by the therapist following an assessment of the young person’s current ability. The walk should be carried out at their own steady pace with a heart rate between 40% and 50% of their maximum heart rate and be continuous. This should be carried out at least five times a week. Once this has been achieved and maintained, without a daily fluctuation in overall activity levels, the young person can increase the duration of the walk to reach 30 minutes. This is done carefully with a graduated approach, increasing 10%–25% every 3–14 days. Once the young person is able to carry out 30 minutes of low intensity exercise 5–7 days a week, they can begin to increase the intensity of the walk, using interval training. The training heart rate will aim to rise between 50% and 70% of their maximum heart rate. Using a heart rate monitor can avoid over exercising which can lead to an exacerbation in symptoms. The graded exercise model is displayed in figure 2.” (Brigden et al 2017:3)


Figure 2 The graded exercise model
upload_2017-9-26_18-38-29.png




And the PACE trial’s description of GET is also clear that increasing exercise is the whole point, while acknowledging that overexertion must be avoided:


“Therapeutic strategies consisted of establishment of a baseline of achievable exercise or physical activity, followed by a negotiated, incremental increase in the duration of time spent physically active. Target heart rate ranges were set when necessary to avoid overexertion, which eventually aimed at 30 min of light exercise five times a week. When this rate was achieved, the intensity and aerobic nature of the exercise was gradually increased, with participant feedback and mutual planning.” (White et al 2011:825).
 

KME

Messages
91
Location
Ireland
I listened to the programme on playback – wow, impressive and sobering programme. Huge thanks to all patients and @charles shepherd for painting such a vivid picture of patient experience of current NHS treatments. I was impressed at how succinctly patients summarised their experiences and felt the presenters did a good job of moving the show on to include as many views as possible. I think listeners would have learned a lot, and would have been equipped to make their own judgement on Prof Crawley’s contribution at the end of the programme.
 

Countrygirl

Senior Member
Messages
5,476
Location
UK
I'm not keeping up..so apols if I'm being dense. People do know that the Linbury Trust fund BPS studies don't they? Wouldn't want anyone thinking they were kosher.

I used to keep a check on their literature and research projects about 20 years ago. They mainly seemed to promote a psychiatric view of ME. They are best avoided if they still promote the same misguided nonsense.
 

NelliePledge

Senior Member
Messages
807
Haven't read through the whole post but I did read a tldr of the interview and I thought it would be good to appreciate good journalism (although for this show all she had to do was be fairminded and not give Crowley an undue amount of time). So I tweeted a thanks. In case anyone else wants to jump on:

disagree - it is a consumer programme - would expect them to at least look into what exactly LP is rather than allowing EC to skim over the surface with her usual waffle - it was very good up until the point Winifred started talking to EC
 
Messages
26
Location
Gloucestershire
Good lord creepy doesn't half go on! Lying too as to how many in the trial - she said 100 I think.

Oh, now she's saying it's 3-5 different illnesses.

Urk.
She uses broad criteria, not requiring PEM as key symptom, so I think she is right to say several different illnesses but the awful thing is she never stresses the danger of longterm possibly lifelong relapse if you have Post exertional malaise.
 

Countrygirl

Senior Member
Messages
5,476
Location
UK
Has this been posted?

The NHS jumps on Esther's bandwagon.

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2017/09Septe...th-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-study-claims.aspx

I didn't realise that the Linbury Trust jointly funded the SMILE trial. They would! :(



Lightning Process 'could help children with chronic fatigue syndrome',


  • It's not known what causes CFS/ME, but there are a number of theories, such as it being triggered by an infection.

    Living with the condition can be difficult, with extreme tiredness and other symptoms making everyday activities challenging.

    As well as support from family and friends, it might also be useful for people with CFS/ME to talk to others with the condition and perhaps find a local support group.

    Where did the story come from?
    The study was carried out by researchers from the University of Bristol and the University of Nottingham in the UK. It was funded by the National Institute for Health Research and two charitable trusts: The Linbury Trust and The Ashden Trust.

    The study was published in the peer-reviewed medical journal Archives of Disease in Childhood, part of BMJ Journals, and is free to read online.

    The media reporting of this study was generally accurate, but the Daily Telegraph's suggestion that the therapy helps children get back to school cannot be certain – there are a range of possible explanations for why children in the LP therapy group had better school attendance.

    What kind of research was this?
    This was a randomised controlled trial involving teenagers who had been diagnosed with CFS/ME. They were randomised to receive either usual care, or usual care plus the LP.

    The LP is a therapy developed from osteopathy, life coaching and neurolinguistic programming (a behavioural psychotherapy that "retrains the brain"), and is used for a variety of conditions.

    CFS/ME is a long-term illness with a wide range of symptoms, the most common being extreme tiredness.

    It can also cause sleep problems, concentration problems, muscle or joint pain, headaches, a sore throat, flu-like symptoms, feeling dizzy or sick, or a fast or irregular heartbeat.

    Current accepted treatments in the UK health service include cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT); a structured exercise programme called graded exercise therapy; and medication to control pain, nausea and sleep problems.

    What did the research involve?
    The researchers randomised 100 children aged 12 to 18 with diagnosed CFS/ME to receive either specialist medical care (SMC) or SMC plus the LP, and followed them up at 3, 6 and 12 months.

    There were 51 participants in the SMC-only group. The SMC focused on improving sleep, and using activity management to establish a baseline level of activity (including school attendance, exercise and social activity) that was then gradually increased.

    Sessions were delivered by professionals such as doctors, psychologists and physiotherapists. The number and timing of sessions were agreed with the teenager and their family.

    There were 49 participants in the SMC-plus-LP group. In addition to the same SMC, they attended an LP course consisting of three different sessions, lasting four hours each, on consecutive days. They attended in groups of two to five.

    The first was a theory session looking at:
    • stress response
    • how the mind and body interact
    • how thought processes can be positive or negative
    This was followed by a group session in which participants were asked to think about what they could take responsibility for and change.

    The third was a practical session in which participants were asked to choose a goal they wished to achieve, such as being able to stand for a longer period of time. They were given different thinking strategies to perform before and during attempting to achieve the goal. They also chose a further goal, to be attempted at home.

    Each participant was offered two follow-up phone calls.

    Outcomes assessed were:
    • physical function, measured using the 36-Item Short-Form Health Survey Physical Function Subscale (SF-36-PFS)
    • quality of life using quality-adjusted life years (QALYs), measured using the EQ-5D-Y standardised instrument
    • fatigue, using the Chalder Fatigue Scale
    • pain, using the Visual Analogue Scale (VAS)
    • anxiety and depression, using the Hospital Anxiety and Depression Scale (HADS)
    • school attendance (days per week)
    • child's use of health services, educational services or health-related travel, and other family costs, using a questionnaire
    What were the basic results?
    At six months after randomisation, data from 81 participants showed that those in the SMC-plus-LP group were:

    More active
    They had better physical function compared with the SMC-only group according to the SF-36-PFS scale of 0 to 100, where lower scores indicate worse physical function. The SMC-plus-LP group's average increased from a baseline of 53 to 81.7, and the SMC-only group's increased from 56 to 70.2 (adjusted difference in means 12.5, 95% confidence interval [CI] 4.5 to 20.5).

    Less fatigued
    They had less fatigue, scoring 14.4 compared with 19.8 in the SMC-only group on a scale of 0 to 33, where higher scores indicate more fatigue (adjusted difference in means 4.7, 95% CI 7.9 to 1.6).

    Less anxious
    They had greater improvement in anxiety symptoms as measured by the HADS (scored from 0 to 21, with higher scores indicating worse symptoms) than the SMC-only group. The SMC-plus-LP average score was 6.1, compared with 9.0 for the SMC-only group (adjusted difference in means 3.3, 95% CI 5.6 to 1).

    At 12 months after randomisation, data from 79 participants showed that the SMC-plus-LP-group were:

    More active, less fatigued and less anxious
    They still had better physical function, less fatigue and improved anxiety symptoms compared with the SMC-only group.

    Feeling better
    The SMC-plus-LP group also had greater improvement in depression symptoms on the HADS – scored from 0 to 21, with higher scores indicating more-severe symptoms (adjusted difference in means -1.7, 95% CI -3.3 to -0.2).

    Attending school more often
    School attendance, as measured by attendance in the previous week, was better for the SMC-plus-LP group, at 4.1 days on average, than the SMC-only group's 3.1 days (adjusted difference in means 0.9, 95% CI 0.2 to 1.6).

    How did the researchers interpret the results?
    The researchers concluded: "This is the first randomised trial investigating the effectiveness of the LP for any condition. It is the first trial that has demonstrated the effectiveness of an intervention other than CBT for paediatric CFS/ME.

    "The addition of the LP to SMC improved physical function at 6 and 12 months in adolescents with CFS/ME and this difference increased at 12 months."

    Conclusion
    The results from this very small randomised controlled trial showed that people having LP therapy in addition to usual CFS/ME care had improved physical function, fatigue and anxiety symptoms at six months, and improved school attendance and depressive symptoms at 12 months.

    However, there are a number of limitations to this research that need to be considered:
    • Participants in both groups improved, so both treatments were effective to some extent.
    • This was a very small trial, and the results analysis involved fewer than the 100 people recruited. It would need to be repeated in a much larger group to demonstrate more robust findings.
    • A number of outcomes were looked at, so it was very likely that some of them would return positive findings by chance – the improvements might not have been due to the LP therapy.
    • Participants were not blinded – they were aware of the group they were in; therefore, their self-reported outcomes might have been biased. They may have been more likely to report positive outcomes because they knew they were getting additional therapy in the LP group.
    • Of all those eligible to participate in the trial, fewer than 30% agreed to take part. The reason why the majority didn't want to is unknown.
    As the LP therapy was given in addition to the usual CFS/ME care, it certainly cannot be suggested as a replacement for the current usual care.

    There's no single way of managing CFS/ME that works for everyone and, if you have the condition, you should be offered a treatment plan based on your symptoms. Your doctor should discuss all options with you and make you aware of any benefits and risks.

    Analysis by

    Edited by NHS Choices

    Links to the headlines
    Chronic fatigue therapy 'could help teenagers', study says. BBC News, September 21 2017

    Controversial 'light' treatment for young ME patients - endorsed by celebrities - DOES work despite being labelled as 'quack medicine'. Mail Online, September 21 2017

    Controversial Lightning Process 'helps children with chronic fatigue syndrome'. The Guardian, September 20 2017

    M.E. 'Lightning Process' trains the brain to ward off tired thoughts. The Daily Telegraph, September 20 2017

    Links to the science
    Crawley EM, Gaunt DM, Garfield K, et al. Clinical and cost-effectiveness of the Lightning Process in addition to specialist medical care for paediatric chronic fatigue syndrome: randomised controlled trial. Archives of Disease in Childhood. Published online September 20 2017
 

PracticingAcceptance

Senior Member
Messages
1,861
.......................It is an allergy to broad beans. :cool:

Not only has she cracked the mystery, but...............even better..........she has the cure. And, no, it isn't avoiding broad beans (she wasn't fazed by the fact that I don't like them and always avoid them.................makes no difference.................) :ill:

Drink your own urine. :thumbsup:

However, and this is very important.......

It must not be between 3 am and 3 pm.
I

This cracked me up! Love this thread!!


Also Crawly goes down the line of the mind body connection and how we shouldn't be separating physical and psychological, in which case why do we bother with treatments for MS or cancer when we could just stand on pieces of paper shouting stop at the symptoms.

I'm wondering about this. I do believe that mind and body are connected. When I'm stressed, I'm more likely to get the flu. There's a clear correlation in my personal experience. That doesn't mean that stress CAUSES flu. Flu is caused by a virus. Stress makes me more susceptible to catching the virus which was there anyway.

I've also found that being stressed keeps me ill for longer, and de-stressing properly can speed up my recovery. I'm thinking about acute illness here - I'm still not sure about chronic illness. But I theorise that it could apply to ME as well.

I don't think you can 'think away' ME, but I do think I can give myself the best chance of recovering if I set up my mental well-being as best I can. CBT aids some people to manage their symptoms (though it doesn't work for everyone), LP could help people get into a helpful attitude to aid recovery. I've met people who LP genuinely has helped (but not cured).

We don't have to disagree with everything this woman says just because we don't like her. I can believe that mind and body are connected, and still not believe that LP is a cure.

I don't believe that LP will make THE difference - but I can see how it could help some people, in the absence of anything proper. If LP was marketed as a supporting technique rather than a cure, it might be less controversial. I reckon they call it a cure to make people believe it will work, to harness the placebo effect - and they don't describe what it is for a reason - the grand reveal makes it feel more powerful, which I can see would help with the placebo effect.

So, you know that they're reviewing ME treatments... what do you think would happen if LP was used by the NHS, if the financing was sorted, and if there was enough evidence for the NHS to use it? I think it would no longer be marketed as a cure. It would be given as another support tool, as CBT is being given. I think they would explain what happens, which would take away the 'grand reveal'. It might still be helpful to people. What do you think would happen?
 

SamanthaJ

Senior Member
Messages
219
Last edited:

Londinium

Senior Member
Messages
178
I'm wondering about this. I do believe that mind and body are connected. When I'm stressed, I'm more likely to get the flu. There's a clear correlation in my personal experience. That doesn't mean that stress CAUSES flu. Flu is caused by a virus. Stress makes me more susceptible to catching the virus which was there anyway.

I think it's an oversimplification - pushed heavily by BPS proponents - that those objecting to their research are operating in some outdated Cartesian frame of mind/body dualism. I don't deny that any illness feels worse if one is stressed or similar. However, this valid criticism of the concept of mind and body being separate is then immediately replaced via a bait-and-switch into the far more scientifically dubious 'the mind can heal the body'.

We don't have to disagree with everything this woman says just because we don't like her.

I try not to personalise these things and instead weigh up on the evidence. My complaint is with Prof Crawley's research, not her personally. For example, I welcome her acknowledgement that ME is a physical illness of an inflammatory nature; it's just that her remedies are at complete odds with her claim to believe this. Similarly, we should acknowledge that at least the SMILE trial makes an attempt to include an objective outcome measure - even if that measure was changed from being the primary outcome and is fatally flawed as a measure for reasons I've posted about elsewhere. I try to take no view on her personally, but do view that her work is pretty damn shoddy.

I don't believe that LP will make THE difference - but I can see how it could help some people, in the absence of anything proper. If LP was marketed as a supporting technique rather than a cure, it might be less controversial. I reckon they call it a cure to make people believe it will work, to harness the placebo effect - and they don't describe what it is for a reason - the grand reveal makes it feel more powerful, which I can see would help with the placebo effect.

Under the mantra of informed consent, calling a placebo a cure in order to make the placebo effect more powerful is generally considered unethical. And if a private firm marketed a placebo - to paying customers - and then said 'well we called it a cure to increase the placebo effect' I doubt Trading Standards would take too kindly a view.

But even if it were marketed as a support technique, it would still be very controversial. For all its claims about being supported by scientific research, proponents of LP are very cagey around what it comprises citing commercial confidentiality. This is the antithesis of how conventional medical treatments are rolled out - there is a huge amount of literature describing the techniques and theoretical underpinnings of CBT, for example. The fact this is a semi-secretive process that you only find out about once you've paid your fee is a massive red flag.

Personally, the woo factor is just too high for me and I couldn't see myself going for an expensive treatment devised by an author who's previously advocated using tarot cards and meditational dowsing, just because it's now marketed as a 'support therapy'. Same as I feel for homeopathy, reiki, crystal healing etc.

So, you know that they're reviewing ME treatments... what do you think would happen if LP was used by the NHS, if the financing was sorted, and if there was enough evidence for the NHS to use it? I think it would no longer be marketed as a cure. It would be given as another support tool, as CBT is being given. I think they would explain what happens, which would take away the 'grand reveal'. It might still be helpful to people. What do you think would happen?

Here is the test for me: if the NHS/NICE truly believed that they were solely offering a 'support therapy' for a real, physical, inflammatory condition, presumably they'd be offering it for other conditions as well? Show me well-designed trials compared against similar-style sham treatments in the control arm, with genuine objective outcomes, that work for ME/CFS, arthritis, colitis etc. Show me that LP has received widespread acceptance by doctors outside the ME/CFS field for diseases for which the aetiology is not controversial, and I'll change my mind.

But whilst a therapy that has been criticised widely as pseudoscience is offered solely for ME/CFS patients then I'll remain sceptical as to whether the medical profession really believes they've found a genuine miracle cure, or whether they still view ME/CFS patients as suffering from hysteria who can be fobbed off with any old woo.