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XMRV CFS UK study #II

flex

Senior Member
Messages
304
Location
London area
There would be such as simple way of solving this. It would be for one study in the UK and one at the WPI to test 100 of the same samples under Canadian criteria, matching the WHO definition of something that resembles a real disease.

But that is not going to happen, for reasons of sheer pride. "Our methods are as good as yours". Then there is the issue of cohorts that is so obviously a major flaw in the UK studies. All we are really being told is XMRV is not implicated in depression or "tiredness" or "burn out".

What a waste of money!!!

Where is the WHO in all this - are we saying that there is no such disease ME and the WHO are completely wrong. We know what depression is, we know what tiredness is, we know what deconditioning is. Why are we wasting money on proving what they are not!!
 
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Gerwyn

Guest
Let's stick with the science. This was a reasonably-sized study with good, unbiased scientists involved. Either there is a major geographical issue with XMRV - which is extremely unlikely - or there is a problem. There will be more data coming in so this issue is far from decided. But let's not start conspiracy theories around good quality science. This study is extremely disappointing but it is certainly honest.
And XMRV is not, and never was, the only game in town. Have faith in the scientific process.

this was not good quality science the discussion section was nowhere near a good standard There are a number of possible reasons for the results and they should have been discussed in depth and the controls were hopelessly inadequate considering what they were aiming to do.The choice of cells for transfection and so on went against priorly published evidence.there were a huge number of assumptions made yet again xmrv known positives were not used to calibrate their unproven assay methods.So I,m wondering where the good science was.Replication involves the same methodology and the same patient cohort.this study had neither they used untrialed methodology and different diagnostic methods Whatever that clone was it was not a clone of WT xmrv.I cant understand this wilfull deviation from scientific protocol.it would have been so simple to replicate the WPI methodology if negative then end of argument in the uk as long as the patient diagnosis the same But of course it is not
 

fresh_eyes

happy to be here
Messages
900
Location
mountains of north carolina
There would be such as simple way of solving this. It would be for one study in the UK and one at the WPI to test 100 of the same samples under Canadian criteria...

Yes. Or an even easier solution, as suggested by Dr R at the Virology blog: the authors of the conflicting studies could simply exchange samples they've already tested. I see no reason for the WPI and the Kerr group not to go ahead and do this, considering that both are "on our side," as it were; perhaps this is what we should push for? Opinions?
 
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George

Guest
Still haven't heard from these guys!

Woof, woof, It's not over till the fat lady sings and these two study were just the warm up act. We haven't even got to the Main Event yet!!!!!

Dr. LLoyd in Australia

Prof. Towers at University College London

Dr. Coffin at Tufts University, Boston, MA, USA

Dr. Paul Jolicoeur The University of Montreal, CA

Retroviral research group at the CDC Virology Lab in Atlanta, GA, USA

Jonas Blomberg, Professor of Clinical Virology, Uppsala University in Sweden



And a couple more. . .Anybody??
 

julius

Watchoo lookin' at?
Messages
785
Location
Canada
Yes. Or an even easier solution, as suggested by Dr R at the Virology blog: the authors of the conflicting studies could simply exchange samples they've already tested. I see no reason for the WPI and the Kerr group not to go ahead and do this, considering that both are "on our side," as it were; perhaps this is what we should push for? Opinions?

I don't think this solves anything. We all know what the result will be. WPI will detect it and the UK labs won't. Then we're in exactly the same place.
 

oerganix

Senior Member
Messages
611
Woof, woof, It's not over till the fat lady sings and these two study were just the warm up act. We haven't even got to the Main Event yet!!!!!

Dr. LLoyd in Australia

Prof. Towers at University College London

Dr. Coffin at Tufts University, Boston, MA, USA

Dr. Paul Jolicoeur The University of Montreal, CA

Retroviral research group at the CDC Virology Lab in Atlanta, GA, USA

Jonas Blomberg, Professor of Clinical Virology, Uppsala University in Sweden



And a couple more. . .Anybody??

I agree. It's more like a tennis match. Or a baseball game in the early innings. Although, at time it seems like one team is playing tennis, another baseball and all of it on a soccer field.
 
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George

Guest
Woof, Woof . . . Fresh_eyes!!!!!!!!!!!!!! slobber, slobber, kiss kiss

Hey Organix, I agree it does seem like the international groups are playing "football" and the American teams are playing "football" (grins).
 

Bob

Senior Member
Messages
16,455
Location
England (south coast)
I don't think this solves anything. We all know what the result will be. WPI will detect it and the UK labs won't. Then we're in exactly the same place.

That's not quite right because:
If the UK research teams were unable to find the virus in the WPI's samples, then it would show that the UK methodology is flawed.
If the WPI were to find the virus in the UK teams' ME patient blood samples, then that would be really helpful for all of us.
 

fresh_eyes

happy to be here
Messages
900
Location
mountains of north carolina
I don't think this solves anything. We all know what the result will be. WPI will detect it and the UK labs won't. Then we're in exactly the same place.

Hi Julius. But if the labs involved got different results on the exact same samples, then they could get to work (collaboratively) on figuring out why. So I think it would represent an important step toward resolution.

I'd hate to see XMRV go the way of Lyme, where only certain (possibly biased) labs detect it - that would leave us no better off than ever, IMO.
 

Cort

Phoenix Rising Founder
Technical Back and Forth between a critique of the first study and Dr. Mikovits

This is real technical stuff but perhaps someone has the experience to understand it.
http://f1000biology.com/article/id/1166366/dissent

Dr. Mikovits does agree that they should have discussed unpublished results in the media.

Matsuo Shuda and Patrick Moore

The discovery of the cause of chronic fatigue syndrome would be an extraordinary finding. Rather than providing extraordinary proof, this manuscript has flaws that leave the reader unsure of knowing precisely what was measured.

To detect the xenotropic murine leukemia-like virus (XMRV), the authors used nested-PCR on non-randomized and non-blinded samples, a recipe for uncontrolled PCR contamination. This technique re-amplifies previously cycled products and is inherently prone to intermittent false positivity that has occurred in our lab and many others (e.g. {1} and {2} on which I am the author). This is a concern in light of post-publication claims that XMRV detection rates among chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) patients have climbed from 67% to 95%, and XMRV tests are now being sold and advertised on the internet at http://www.redlabsusa.com . Southern blotting, which would allay this suspicion, was not done. Other results in the study also lack support. Flow cytometry and immunostaining with murine leukemia virus (MLV) antibodies were used to directly detect viral proteins in patient cells (see Figure 2A of the paper). The CFS peripheral blood cells have robust monotonic staining rather than the bimodal peaks that are expected from a mixture of infected and uninfected populations of peripheral blood cells. It is not certain whether this level of viremia for an exogenous retrovirus is medically possible. It may, perhaps, be possible but it seems improbable and is a pattern more consistent with a cross-reactive endogenous retroviral antigen. To confirm this finding, CFS peripheral blood cells (without negative controls in Figure 2B) were immunoblotted using cross-reactive spleen focus-forming virus (SFFV) and MLV antibodies. XMRV gp70 and p30 proteins are found at higher levels in 2 out of 5 CFS peripheral blood samples (1150 and 1221) than in the positive control -- HCD-57 cells directly infected with SFFV -- a very remarkable result. Repetition with negative control samples (see Figure 2C of the paper) has the higher molecular weight bands cut from the photograph, thus we cannot interpret potential positivity for p30 gag precursor proteins among the control samples (see CFS samples 1199 and 1220 in Figure 2B). Finally, the positive control HCD-57 cell lane in Figure 2C lane 8 has a completely different banding pattern from the very same control in Figure 2B lane 7 for the p30 gag protein. The elementary issue of whether the authors are measuring XMRV has to be clarified. The fundamental basis for the CFS case and control samples is also not defined at an appropriate level. The samples (supplementary online material) were "selected for this study from patients fulfilling the 1994 CDC Fukuda Criteria for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (S1) and the 2003 Canadian Consensus Criteria for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis (CFS/ME) and presenting with severe disability". These are two separate definitions, the latter published in the "Journal of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome" (which is no longer in print). It is unclear how the samples were selected from these two criteria. No references or cut-offs are given for tests used to clinically define the CFS patients as cases so we are unable to interpret the essential basis for the study. In addition, no description is given to indicate that controls were tested in the same manner as CFS patients; in fact, there is no description for negative control samples at all. For a disease whose diagnosis is controversial, a clear statement of where and how the cases and controls were selected is a critical first step.


Competing interests: None declared
Evaluated 18 Nov 2009

Author Response: Judy Mikovits, Whittemore Peterson Institute, Reno, United States

This dissent first discusses "the cause of CFS". We did not imply that XMRV caused CFS. We specifically state that our observation "raises several important questions". Is XMRV infection a causal factor in the pathogenesis of CFS or a passenger virus in the immunosuppressed CFS patient? The work presents a testable hypothesis that XMRV has a role in CFS pathogenesis. The key task for the scientific community is to define the scope of human disease associated with XMRV infection. We were highly concerned and vigilant about taking precautions to avoid PCR contamination. This was minimized using laboratory controls such as dedicated first- and second-round PCR areas in different buildings and consistent treatment of instruments and work areas with DNA ZAP and UV rays.

Although the original screen was performed using nested PCR, PCR positivity on a subset of samples was confirmed using single-round PCR in a different facility (Fig1A). Although not in the manuscript, PCR status was verified on identical samples not processed at WPI in a XMRV-free lab at NCI. Moreover, in normal samples analyzed in parallel, amplified sequences were found in only 3.7%, making it unlikely that 67% positivity reflects "uncontrolled PCR contamination". We should not have discussed unpublished data, particularly considering the lay media. To discuss more details about our more recent studies would repeat that error, but we were able to culture XMRV virus from plasma and detect antibodies in some samples which were PCR-negative (e.g. see #1118 in Fig1, 2A, 2D). These examples compelled us to further study PCR-negative patient samples. Flow cytometry data in the study were not meant to determine in vivo levels of XMRV protein expression or the level of clinical viremia. The goal was to determine if the XMRV DNA sequences detected represented the presence of infectious viral particles. The studies of XMRV protein expression in peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMC) were performed after PBMC were activated in culture with phytohemagglutinin and interleukin-2 for 7-14 days to allow the virus to spread through the culture. It should have been made clearer.

Although at earlier times these samples did have bimodal peaks, data shown were when most cells were virus positive. Not included in the paper was the ability of azidothymidine to block XRMV spread in vitro. The methodology for the immunoblots was also questioned. We used monoclonal antibodies which recognized the envelope of all xenotropic and polytropic but not ectopic murine leukemia viruses and reacted with XMRV env proteins of expected sizes. Concerning the relatively weak signal of the positive control, HCD-57/SFFV, test sample lanes contained 150-200ug of protein, only 30ug was loaded in the HCD/SFFV lane to prevent the positive control signal from overwhelming adjacent lanes. This study was the initial finding of infectious XMRV virions in human blood and a second association of XMRV and human disease.

Our observation of actively replicating virus, as well as antibodies directed against XMRV (which were not criticized) in the patient population examined, strengthened the paper and the hypothesis that this recently discovered virus is a human pathogen.

Clinically, CFS is a heterogeneous syndrome with diagnosis made on the basis of the exclusion of other diseases. Thus, the basis for diagnosis varies greatly and we expect there to be XMRV-positive and -negative CFS patients. Additional large-scale clinical studies using control groups are essential to determine whether XMRV is the cause of CFS. Also, rigorous independent validation is crucial. To facilitate this, the NCI, Cleveland Clinic and WPI are making virus reagents available through the NIH AIDS repository to any academic investigator by contacting the investigators involved.

Response added 7 Jan 2010
 

julius

Watchoo lookin' at?
Messages
785
Location
Canada
Yeah, but with all the evidence at this point it's obvious that there is some methodological problem. And there is a lot of work going on right now to develop better tests and methods. My understanding is that most of the work being done in the States in cooperation with WPI is directed at exactly that.

Spending the time and money to organize that cross testing between IC/WPI/Kerr would just be a waste, given that we already know there is a problem and it's already being worked on.
 

Navid

Senior Member
Messages
564
I'd hate to see XMRV go the way of Lyme, where only certain (possibly biased) labs detect it - that would leave us no better off than ever, IMO.


yes, that would be a shame...however llm docs do recognize the "biased labs" lyme tests and do provide treatment that is effective for many lyme pts....so at a minimum if some docs accepted wpi's positive xmrv results and trialed their patients on anti-retrovirals, we might see some people regain their health.
 

fresh_eyes

happy to be here
Messages
900
Location
mountains of north carolina
yes, that would be a shame...however llm docs do recognize the "biased labs" lyme tests and do provide treatment that is effective for many lyme pts....so at a minimum if some docs accepted wpi's positive xmrv results and trialed their patients on anti-retrovirals, we might see some people regain their health.

I guess you're right, lisag - it would be an improvement. Just not as much of an improvement as I'm hoping for (clear diagnosis, clear treatment, covered by insurance, etc.). Well, I can dream!
 
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George

Guest
Clinically, CFS is a heterogeneous syndrome with diagnosis made on the basis of the exclusion of other diseases. Thus, the basis for diagnosis varies greatly and we expect there to be XMRV-positive and -negative CFS patients. Additional large-scale clinical studies using control groups are essential to determine whether XMRV is the cause of CFS. Also, rigorous independent validation is crucial. To facilitate this, the NCI, Cleveland Clinic and WPI are making virus reagents available through the NIH AIDS repository to any academic investigator by contacting the investigators involved.
So we have two studies from the UK, neither of which tried to "validate" the WPI study, in other words they didn't even try to use the same methodology, assays or reagents. Why?

I'm guessing they were going for "replication" in regards to do CFS patients have XMRV?? I mean some of the science going on right now is about the virus itself. How it works, what makes it tick, where can you find it. That will be going on for a very long time.

It seems that question of wither PWC/ME have XMRV is the battle field. Yet a retroviral model for this illness fits perfectly. Every aspect of the problem just drops right into place with a retroviral causative agent. Yet there are groups, and individuals who seem to want to fight tooth and nail against the first real break we've had in years. Go figure.
 
A

anne

Guest
Yet a retroviral model for this illness fits perfectly. Every aspect of the problem just drops right into place with a retroviral causative agent. Yet there are groups, and individuals who seem to want to fight tooth and nail against the first real break we've had in years. Go figure.

I was just flipping through Dr. Bell's old book a month ago. It was written in 1995, I think? He identifies what a causal agent of CFS would have to do, speculates on a number of causes, and lands on a retrovirus as the most promising. A retrovirus would do everything they'd need Agent X to do.
 

Mark

Senior Member
Messages
5,238
Location
Sofa, UK
I've just logged on and scanned the latest bad news, and I haven't had time to get properly up to speed, but I just wanted to quickly post some positivity for those people who are riding the rollercoaster and getting down about this. Yes, it's depressing news, but it hasn't changed my confidence that the WPI study was the beginning of a breakthrough for us. However the science pans out, and whatever the WPI results meant, those results mean something, and the science that is happening now is going to be good news for us in the long run, whatever happens. Consider the publicity we've been getting in the press, all the positive things that are happening on that front, the way we have all been galvanised, brought together; the opportunity to make our case once again and get the need for biomedical research and true recognition of the physical nature of ME/CFS into the minds of researchers round the world. All those things are a breakthrough no matter how it pans out. If the WPI were finding a different retrovirus, or if there's some other kind of complication, however you slice it we still have a test with 98% vs 4% results that has to be explained, and will be explained when the science comes out. Today's bad news is a setback in that it confirms what we feared, that the XMRV-CFS connection is not simple straightforward and indisputable. If it had been that simple, then we could have hoped for things to move very rapidly indeed in the next year. Since it's not, it might take a year or two more to unpick all the details and work out what's really going on here. But we are on an upward curve, and something good is round the corner for us, whatever it may be. If we have different retroviruses in the UK, and they take another 5 years to find, that's too bad. But for me, before the WPI study came out I had no hope whatsoever. Now, there is hope, and there is still hope even after this latest bad news. Stay positive everyone!
 

Bob

Senior Member
Messages
16,455
Location
England (south coast)
They seem to be agreeing with each other here:

Judy Mikovits:
"Clinically, CFS is a heterogeneous syndrome with diagnosis made on the basis of the exclusion of other diseases. Thus, the basis for diagnosis varies greatly and we expect there to be XMRV-positive and -negative CFS patients.
Additional large-scale clinical studies using control groups are essential to determine whether XMRV is the cause of CFS.
Also, rigorous independent validation is crucial. To facilitate this, the NCI, Cleveland Clinic and WPI are making virus reagents available through the NIH AIDS repository to any academic investigator by contacting the investigators involved."

The UK research team:
"...chronic fatigue syndrome may encompass a spectrum of different conditions providing a possible explanation for this discrepancy.
"...Replication is an important part of the scientific method and, as the initial findings have not yet been replicated, I think it will be important to develop standardised samples and assays for XMRV that can be rapidly tested by different laboratories around the world."
http://www.nimr.mrc.ac.uk/news/2010/xmrv-cfs/index.htm
 

bullybeef

Senior Member
Messages
488
Location
North West, England, UK
All this being said, the UK is going to be a tough nut to crack. In regards to microbiological research, we are decades behind other European countries. ME has been a dustbin diagnosis for twenty years, which has also muddied the pool of sufferers. On top of all that, the NHS, Dept. of Health, the Medical Research Council and National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence have all had an hand in keeping ME/CFS a somatised condition. It isn't a surprise that this study was backed by the MRC and showed less than positive results.

ME being linked to a biological retrovirus could put plenty of people away for crimes to humanity here in the UK. It isn't about science anymore. It is wholly political.

Someone mentioned even Weesely can't bury XMRV. Yeah, he probably couldn't, but he could make sure it isn't linked to ME/CFS. XMRV will be proven to exist here and in Europe eventually, just not in ME.