Why are women with brain tumours being dismissed as attention-seekers?

[Woolie]

I don't understand why these docs think we are vying for attention by going to hospitals, etc.

Haha, yea, like the 15 minutes in their office is somehow a real trip for us. What an ego!

 

[jimells]

@alex3619, would you say its generally harder for a man to seek help with mental health issues? Perhaps less acceptable to admit to them, seen more as a weakness?

I believe this is the case. I have a very good friend with bipolar disorder, and he definitely doesn't want any business associates to know. For anyone with a corporate career (which my friend used to have), showing *any* kind of "weakness" is a career killer.

That "weakness" includes making one's family a priority, any kind of illness that lasts longer than a hangover, and showing empathy. Empathy is "bad" because it suggests that one might not squeeze every last nickel out of competitors, suppliers, and employees.

In a society built on cutthroat competition, "social Darwinism" is the order of the day.

 

[Crux]

I believe this is the case. I have a very good friend with bipolar disorder, and he definitely doesn't want any business associates to know. For anyone with a corporate career (which my friend used to have), showing *any* kind of "weakness" is a career killer.

That "weakness" includes making one's family a priority, any kind of illness that lasts longer than a hangover, and showing empathy. Empathy is "bad" because it suggests that one might not squeeze every last nickel out of competitors, suppliers, and employees.

In a society built on cutthroat competition, "social Darwinism" is the order of the day.

A bipolar disorder diagnosis would tend to be a deal breaker. But for the last decade or so, it's been dished out heavily.

Though men tend to go to docs less, and deny symptoms more than women, my father was an exception.

He was a sickly child, and drew sympathies from his family early on. Some women seemed to be attracted to his condition. He learned to use it to his advantage. I didn't really consider this until I read a biography of Howard Hughes. ( The biographer was speculating, as am I.)

 

[alex3619]

@alex3619, would you say its generally harder for a man to seek help with mental health issues? Perhaps less acceptable to admit to them, seen more as a weakness?

I suspect it is, but its hard for me to say as my own attitude is not stereotypical. I have no doubt that some will say I am anti-psychiatry, but I am only anti-bad-psychiatry, which is far too much of it. I would seek out psychiatric help if I thought it was going to be useful, though I would double and triple check everything they tell me, just as I do with other doctors. Indeed a couple of years back I saw a psychiatrist for memory testing, though what I saw was underwhelming and almost useless ... I paid a lot of money to find out I do not have dementia and do not have narcolepsy, at least from one opinion. I already knew that.

I think some men feel stigmatized, like its a failing. However I do not know how common this is, though I have seen it a few times.

Other men may feel its justified if it helps them solve a problem. While the stereotype of men is about lacking communication skills, the stereotype is also of problem solvers. In this mindset I think most men would be happy to go look for help if they perceive a problem needs fixing, though they might not be happy talking about it.

Its really hard for anyone to speak generally about even their own gender. People are individuals, and vary a lot. However there are cultural stereotypes that are reinforced from early childhood. According to some writers many men have problems seeking help. Given that such articles are often from a biased position its hard to be sure.

 

[leela]

Maybe because they are so impressed with themselves that they assume the rest of us are equally impressed.

Haha, jimells, right on

 

[Woolie]

Its really hard for anyone to speak generally about even their own gender. People are individuals, and vary a lot.

Yea,@alex3619, I get your point, dangerous to go down that road. Maybe better to stick to society's differing expectations/perceptions of the genders and how they impact on the person (and stay away from sweeping generalisations about traits, behaviours or attitudes).

 

[Sidereal]

Here's a morbidly funny incident, though ; after my sister's death, a cardiologist friend of my father told him that there was no correlation between my siblings' deaths, as well as risk for me. ( I had a long history of passing out, like my brother.)

Some few months later, the cardiologist was in bed with the flu. My father told me, ( as told to him), that the cardiologist suddenly raised his arm, then died. ( he had a history of a. fib.)

Sorry to hear about your siblings.

Somewhat related to your cardiologist anecdote, a friend of the family was born with a congenital heart defect and underwent several surgeries to correct this. Her prognosis back when we were kids was dire, with doctors saying she probably wouldn't live past 20. She did well after the surgeries, felt good and decided this was all bullshit and she wasn't going to be slowed down by a little thing like illness so she lived life to the fullest - working excessively, travelling frequently, partying hard, drinking alcohol, eating whatever she wanted, gym etc.

My family (who don't think ME and POTS are a big deal) always held her up as an example of how I should be living my life instead of being 'afraid' of my symptoms and 'avoiding' activity to such a drastic degree. I had this thrown in my face probably several times a year whenever the dysautonomia symptoms were flaring up badly and I made the mistake of 'complaining' about them.

Anyway, I heard yesterday she collapsed and died, probably v fib, early 30s.

This morning I was in the kitchen and lifted my arm to get something from the shelf and this triggered an a fib. I dropped what I was doing and crawled to bed where I'm going to spend the next several days probably. Fear and avoidance of activity? I'd rather be perceived as a weak, emotional female than be praised for strength, courage and 'not giving up' but dropping dead of sudden cardiac death.

 

[PennyIA]

Probably the way women communicate. If someone sticks solely to facts a logical interpretation is reached. OTOH if someone talks to a doctor about feelings (especially since most doctors are males) then a psychological cause is a more likely interpretation

I happen to be a woman who is a computer programmer. I don't bring up feelings at doctors appointments as it has NO BEARING on the condition and symptoms and my search for a diagnosis. That is. Until the doctors bring it up. It's ALWAYS the doctors who ask me how I'm feeling and if I might be depressed, or stressed or near my period and might be a bit 'emotional'.

Just the sheer statement that you assume most women would bring up feelings at a doctors appointment and that men wouldn't infers that you believe men are more rational and women are more emotional and incapable of rational discussions when that is needed.

BTW, someday I should introduce you to my fiance - a male who spends about 80% more time wanting to talk about feelings and emotions than I.

 

[PennyIA]

Munchausen's by proxy is an issue we all might be interested in, as the diagnosis can be misused in cases of unexplained illness.

I know it's never far from my thoughts. My son has a chronic, undiagnosed illness that while I've pushed to have 'commonly missed' things tested for - I haven't pushed hard for a diagnosis. Odds are he has what I have... whatever that is.

BUT LORD FORBID, I get accused of Munchausen's by proxy. We live alone, how would I be able to prove I'm not intentionally harming him as my own 'bid for attention' - ha! (search for diagnosis) might not have gotten me the attention I seek. SeriouslY?

I'm NOT pushing hard for my son to get a diagnosis because I'm afraid it'll be futile and WORSEN our already bad situation. BECAUSE of things like this and the 'assumption' I'm just being emotional or that I'm seeking attention.

If they only knew me? I'm not overtly seeking attention, good lord. I'd rather be home and active then going to a doctor, for lord's sake.

 

[Crux]

This morning I was in the kitchen and lifted my arm to get something from the shelf and this triggered an a fib. I dropped what I was doing and crawled to bed where I'm going to spend the next several days probably. Fear and avoidance of activity? I'd rather be perceived as a weak, emotional female than be praised for strength, courage and 'not giving up' but dropping dead of sudden cardiac death.

That's bad news about the crash, and especially the a fib.

With this condition, an upswing can be deceptive, and seemingly benign activities can set off a crash.

I still push sometimes....It's a kind of machisma/denial thing. (bad idea) I've done it all my life. (approval seeking sometimes, though it didn't work very well)

I agree it's better to let them 'perceive' us as weak, rather than self-killing for 'love'. ( I still sometimes do this.)

It takes guts to admit one's limitations.

 

[panckage]

Just how do women communicate? I hope you don't mean that women don't communicate using logic and that they are too emotional.

Nope that is not what was written wrote. Men and women communicate differently. We can either bitch, call each other names and then act offended when the other side does the same thing to us. Either that or we can either help work to create a better understanding of each other

 

[PatJ]

Men and women communicate differently.

In my experience the way people communicate has little (if anything) to do with gender but is significantly influenced by personality, family and cultural background, occupation, and life experience.

 

[Valentijn]

Men and women communicate differently.

No, they don't. Especially in a medical context. The only difference is in the reactions of doctors who are biased to interpret the same symptoms differently depending on the gender of the patient.

 

[Gingergrrl]

This morning I was in the kitchen and lifted my arm to get something from the shelf and this triggered an a fib.

@Sidereal How scary and hoping you are doing okay and getting lots of rest.

 

[Gingergrrl]

No, they don't. Especially in a medical context. The only difference is in the reactions of doctors who are biased to interpret the same symptoms differently depending on the gender of the patient.

Exactly and the "Especially in a medical context" are the key words here. Studies have proven that if a male and a female go to the doctor with the same script and read it verbatim (especially cardiology or neurology) that there is a greater chance that the male will be taken seriously and the female won't. They can use actors in the study and no one is crying or emotional and both speak with just a concerned voice re: their symptoms.

 

[Mij]

My favourite response to a new doctor when s/he asked if I'm depressed, "no, but I should be" in a very direct manner. I've used this line many times and it seems to redirect their impression of me.

 

[leela]

the other side

Herein lies the root of the issue

 

[Valentijn]

Herein lies the root of the issue

Reminds me of the first day of class for Psychology 101. There were about 50 of us in a class, one of those big auditorium layouts with the teacher at the bottom, and the seats ascending upwards a full story.

The teacher had us all stand up on on the wide steps along one wall, and told us to stand near the bottom if we thought men and women were more similar than different. If we thought men and women more different than similar, we should stand near the top.

48 students stood near the top, many of which had no idea and were just sheepishly following the biggest group. One loitered awkwardly near the middle, and I stood by myself near the bottom. I was right, and the other 48 were wrong. Of course, I didn't know anything about psychology at that point, but I did remember enough basic biology to know that humans are pretty much all identical in the greater scheme of thing, despite bulges in different places and varied coloring.

Perhaps the message was that we tend to focus almost entirely on differences, even when they are completely overwhelmed by the sheer number of similarities. So yes, woman are slightly different from men. But they are 99.99999% similar, and those tiny differences are not turning them into hysterical waifs who catastrophize or discuss their medical symptoms in a more emotional context.

The real problem is the stereotype of women and men being drastically different creatures who behave and think in different manners.

 

[chipmunk1]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...octors-want-hear-about-psychosomatic-problems

Now we learn from Prof. Shorter that physicians are so great that we get better if we spend time with them. (Otherwise not of course) It has to be a physician. Ordinary mortals or "lowly physiotherapists" don't help at all.

It’s not that physicians are uncomfortable around non-organicity. Their desire to turf these patients to another colleague is born of another cause entirely: The only thing that works in dealing with non-organic patients is the gift of time.

You’ve got to give them the gift of consultation time. Nothing else works. No meds, no physio, nada. You’ve got spend time with them, and let them tell their stories and have the feeling that a sympathetic medical ear is attending to their woes, and, guess what? They slowly get better. (For more on this see my book From Paralysis to Fatigue: A History of Psychosomatic Illness in the Modern Era (link is external), New York, Free Press, 1992)

Who knew? Medical insiders have long known this, and ever since the “Patient as a Person” movement in the 1920s, this has been bruited around the seminar rooms.

But think of the implications for a busy medical practice of giving each non-organic patient 45 minutes of your time on a regular basis. This would work for the patient, but your income would collapse.

They slowly get better

(In your dreams.)

from his book:

The unmarried, divorced and widowed tend to be easy prey for chic media-spawned diseases because they have few "significant others" with whom they may discuss interpretations of their own internal states. Of fifty patients with chronic fatigue syndrome seen at Toronto Hospital,"most were unmarried women and at least 4 had been divorced." Their average age was 33, and fully 50 percent had major depression before the onset of the fatigue. Of 8 patients in one study who were "allergic of everything", four were married, two divorced and two single. As for twentieth century disease, psychiatrist Donna Stewart described a population of young, middle-class female sufferers whose personal lives were in chaos. Of her original eighteen patients reported 1985, seven were married, eight single, and three divorced. Lacking feedback loops, such individuals have only the media against which to test readings of their internal sensations, and the media purvey the most alarmist view possible.

We learn that it's all about unmarried females needing to discuss their emotional lives with someone. So basically it is implied they need a male to talk to otherwise they will somatize. Evidence based science has spoken.

 

[PennyIA]

(In your dreams.)

Initially, I was feeling quite speechless about this. I believe it. Sadly, I do.

But, I think they are confusing things completely.

1) We start with the basic of 'report unusual symptoms' to a medical professional

That gets us no where

2) We follow with more follow ups, asks for more tests and/or expectations that they will investigate further

That gets us labeled as 'attention seeking'

3) And if we decide to try other doctors since the first one has gotten us nowhere...

Now we're drug seeking or still seeking attention as we're shopping doctors.

4) And after years of medical neglect, if we start researching online

Suddenly our issues are caused by media alarmist views

5) And then we reach a point of resignation where we STOP talking about our symptoms, it didn't get us anywhere, anywah...

Now they think we're slowly getting better thanks to their time and attention?

Boy, we can't win, can we?