Review: 'Through the Shadowlands’ describes Julie Rehmeyer's ME/CFS Odyssey
I should note at the outset that this review is based on an audio version of the galleys and the epilogue from the finished work. Julie Rehmeyer sent me the final version as a PDF, but for some reason my text to voice software (Kurzweil) had issues with it. I understand that it is...
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Whooping cough outbreak

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by Ian, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. Ian

    Ian Senior Member

    There has been a lot of news and buzz recently about the whooping cough outbreak. The outbreak has been blamed by the news media on the anti-vaccination crowd.


    Now back to reality.
    GracieJ, currer, WillowJ and 2 others like this.
  2. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

    As if adults were ever getting vaccinated for it anyhow, unless maybe they were in health care or education and working with small children.
  3. WillowJ

    WillowJ คภภเє ɠรค๓թєl

    WA, USA
    in the US, adults do get pertussis vaccine. they have started bundling it with tetanus and diphtheria booster.
  4. Shell

    Shell Senior Member

    I had a mild to moderate dose of whooping cough when I was a kid - and I'd had the vaccine already.
    I've often wondered whether it was the vaccine that caused it.
  5. Sea

    Sea Senior Member

    NSW Australia
    My daughter, several of her classmates and a handful more throughout her school all got whooping cough 3 years ago. All the ones I spoke to were fully immunised
  6. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

    Same with mumps vaccine. Merck is currently being sued by health insurance companies for fraud - for misrepresenting effectiveness data of their MMR component mumps vaccine. This is following whistleblower report by 2 scientists who worked for Merck for years and apparently witnessed this twisting and hiding of data going on for years. This is baaad especially because mumps can cause infertility in boys if they are infected after adolescence. Which is when the mumps vaccine likely wears off, ie when they REALLY need that immunity.
  7. currer

    currer Senior Member

    Mumps is a mild disease if caught at the normal time, which is before puberty. A natural infection with mumps confers lifelong immunity.
    Vaccination prevents mumps being caught young, but the vaccine wears off after a some years, - children catch mumps when they are older, at puberty, a dangerous time to catch mumps.
  8. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

    Eight infants have died from the whooping cough in my state alone. It directly correlates to the decline of getting routine vaccines. Theses babies were too young to get the shot. What a tragedy for these families and babies that had to experience something that could"ve been easily prevented.

    Vaccinations are not 100% effective. My grandchildren caught the chicken pox at preschool but fortunately a very mild case. If they hadn't been vaccinated they could have been very sick. My daughter got the chicken pox and was very sick to the point that she was almost put in the hospital. This was before shots were given for chicken pox.

    That's why it's so important to get vaccinated. For herd immunity. If everyone gets vaccinated, then the chance of pcking up something, whether you have had the vaccination or not dramaticaly reduces the chance of gettng that disease to almost nil. That's why people don't get small pox vaccines anymore.

    I was a very young child when the polio outbreak occured but I remember how scary it was. I have a friend who had polio and then got post polio syndrome.

    There are booster shot for measles and other diseases that are routinely given in the US.

    Barb C.:>)
    wdb, camas and Sallysblooms like this.
  9. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

    Southern USA
    Yes, even more babies would have that horrible disease with no vaccines at all. Many of use know people with polio stories also. Horrible. I was substitute teaching at my son's school and got my booster for measles years ago.

    You can overdo vaccines for sure, but the major diseases have to be kept under control. In countries with no vaccines, it is so sad. Just like with antibiotics that can cause terrible damage, you have to use them sometimes.
    barbc56 likes this.
  10. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

    Can anyone point me to the original science study?

    Barb C.:>)
  11. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

    Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
    It's not that simple

    1) If you eliminate an orgnaism from an ecosystem, nearly always, something evovles to fit that niche'
    and when delaing with pathogens a new one will usually be extremely nasty because it has not had time to adapt to the host

    2) Smallpox was mega nasty, extreme mortality/communicability
    It was NOT like polio, polio was mostly a public health issue as it basically spreads in contaminated water, ergo, clean place up and you do vastly more ot curb it than vaccines could ever do.
    harm from polio infection was vastly lower than harm from smallpox (% chance)
    yes, it put people in "Iron lungs" etc, but rememebr, more folk were getting torn into hamburger ont he road by a great deal. No one really gives a sh*t about road deaths as they are sacrifices ot the great Gods of Consumerism and Convenience.

    Polio is NOT a "Plague"

    3) Edward Henner never knew about things like Bovine Leukemia Virus
    that is, vaccinatiosn have probably infected us with multiple pathogens which their creators didn't know about and couldn't detect.
    odds are high that is how HIV really started.
    Whether ME is caused BY a vaccine contaminant, or is merely triggered by any form of infection, the cluster outbreaks I'd bet are often linked to vaccinations

    4) There are more Human beings....better media...better reporting...better research
    So, more cases areproperly dientified rather than written off as "bug causes sickness" because no one knew
    ie, today you get "over" reporting compared to the past

    5) Packing more and more kids into bigger and oftne nastier maintained/built schools is ****** CRIMINALLY STUPID!!!
    O M F G...schools are custom built germ labs, hence lice and other more obvious problems have sky rocketted.

    6) Faster world travel
    Air travel is behind huge amount of disease spread.
    Joe B. escapes African civil war/poverty, comes to UK in forged papers, but is owned, controlled and slaved by scum Human traffickers
    Joe B. has ebola...think the slavers will tell the rich pondslime he's working for peanuts for that he had Ebola?
    Folks go on "adventure holidays" in rain forests, etc.

    Normally such folk would recover or die off on ship voyages due to their long duration, but air travel is a recipe for disaster as it encloses folk together and is too short for vicitms to defeat the disease PLUS the slime air companies are breaking safety rules by using recirculated air, so, if Joe has some nasty bug YOU have the nasty bug

    "bush meat" is traded across Europe despite the dangers of vast number of bugs and deaths that causes every year.
    more obviously you have "Invasive" plant and other species causing havoc 'cause we Humans can't leave things the hell alone.

    7) Said ages ago and indications are I was right, that virii play an important part in the evolution of higher organisms
    This does not mean that slamming tons of virri AND vaccines into kids is a good idea, jeesh!!!
    Every infection or injury has a risk of triggering very rare but catastrophic harm, and when you ge thit by many at the same time...the risks are nto merely simply additive.

    8) We are designed to develope natural immunity, vaccines for many reasons do nor function liek natural infections/immune response, it's a gawd damn CON

    Really, we're playing a huge game of "throw it all in the pot and stir and see what comes out!" :p
    Vaccines should be *Banned*, except for those in high risk occupations and in specific cicumstances
    for example, fertile females without contraception maybe wise to get rubella vaccination, especially if there's an outbreak.
    A leatherworker who deals in foreign skins may seek anthrax shots

    You really wanna save lives, slam down hard on air travel, bush meat, human trafficking, slash school sizes/number in class rooms (ie set up massive building program so every kid has a school they can WALK to and no more than 250 kids in entire school)
    ensure everyone has sufficent wage and encouragement to buy fresh food/fruit and live healthier lives.
    Do more research, indepdendant research,into dangers form plastics and other environmental poisons, glass is in the end, safer than plastic bottles for kids ot drink out of (and we could make shatter proof glass too if we tried)

    Sorry we're ALL going to DIE. Vaccines are a big boogieman to make you spend money and live in fear.
    Kids will always suffer risk, they need ot unfortunately and paradoxically, to live healthy lives.
    Dirt, injury and infection are natural and required for healthy life
    More lives have been saved by public health and civil engineering than by vaccines, thing is, they do not make lots of money for the corporate bastards (and even then our scum governments have sold off water and other utilities, and see what that's done!).
    Countries with crap or non existant water/sewer systems, public health programs etc wil lof course have sky high health issues.

    Oen Is aw that highlighted the reality
    in CHile iirc, they put in a big public water system, paid for by the IMF
    know what? the IMF demaned that only those who could pay for the water should get it, the cost is 1/3rd the wage of the average lower clas person's annual income!
    So there's all these big stopcocks, padlocked...
    the wealthy fo course have water....and get diseases off the poor shmucks who drink polluted water even though they have fresh clean safe water right beside them...behind padlocks.

    If you want ot look up other interesting things, note the number of youngsters who have died of horrible amoeba/fungal infections that get into the sinus/brain from swimming in water holes in US (in regard to polio)
    number is small, death is horrific.
    Do you make a vaccine for that, or ban/drain/clean the swimming hole?
  12. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem All Good Things Must Come to an End

    I don't think any vaccine is effective really long-term. When vaccines were first used, the vaccinated people would be exposed to the disease from time to time which would boost their immunity. Now that many diseases are well-contained, vaccinated people may never encounter the disease organism. A body is generally not going to devote resources to making antibodies against a disease that it does not encounter over several decades.
  13. Firestormm


    Cornwall England
    I always did find this one from the Lancet interesting. It's from 1998. Oh a quick note. The initial Forbes article referred to by Ian was published in 2010 and referred to children too young to be vaccinated, and herd immunity of course. The second article (cobbled together as it was - btw see that NYT link embedded in it - rather different views expressed) was from April 2012 if memory serves and relates to something different. Was the first article likely to 'irk' some of those in that particular 'movement'? Most definitely. But it was rather specific.

    Anyway: Lancet 1998: Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story:
    barbc56 likes this.
  14. jimells

    jimells Senior Member

    northern Maine
    I remember the polio scares, and lining up with everybody else in town to get the vaccine. I'd like to believe the vaccines helped, but I'm very skeptical:

    1. Since officials lie to us all the time, about almost everything, it's hard to believe they are being truthful about vaccines.

    2. If vaccines are so safe and effective, why do drug companies have special immunity when patients are harmed?

    3. How could it have ever been a good idea to put mercury in vaccines, whether or not it caused/causes autism? How long has industry known that mercury is poisonous? A hundred years?

    There is also a whooping cough outbreak in Maine and Atlantic Canada. Last week the neuro's PA said I should get the vaccine. Apparently she hasn't read the literature that says only well people should be vaccinated...

    I agree with Silverblade that schools are germ factories. The move to giant centralized schools is truly stupid, for so many reasons. I walked or biked to school for about 9 years. Junior high and high school were all the way across town, and it was uphill both ways!
    natasa778 likes this.
  15. Ian

    Ian Senior Member

    Mercury is bad ? That's not what the TV says.

  16. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

    1998!!! Fourteen years ago!!
    Thanks Fire.
    Barb C.:>)
  17. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

    If you follow that reasoning then I guess that death is the ultimate failure of natural immunity?

    Barb C.:>)
    camas and Sallysblooms like this.
  18. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Polio was so common we used to have special hospitals just for polio. However, its death rate was not terribly high compared to smallpox. It did however cause a lot of disability.

    Things do evolve to fit ecological niches, but its typically very slow. Its of more concern that by eliminating too many bugs with antiseptics our immune systems are not sufficiently strengthened to fight off serious infections. If we wipe out too many microbes that are similar to pathogens, we don't get cross reactive immunity.

    Another issue with vaccines - they often do not prevent you from getting the disease just decrease the risk. However when you do get it the immune system should react faster and more powerfully, reducing the duration and severity of illness. Sometimes this might actually be a bad thing, as the immune response itself might do more damage.

    Something that happens with us a lot is a complete loss of responsive antibodies. That means the B cells have died or become inactive. This fits with something the WPI noticed (but have not published, doh) - we have too many immature B cells.

    Bye, Alex
  19. Dainty

    Dainty Senior Member

    There are a few things I'd like to mention about polio. According to the CDC it's actually quite rare for it to be problematic at all. Quoting from this page:

    Approximately 95% of persons infected with polio will have no symptoms. About 4-8% of infected persons have minor symptoms, such as fever, fatigue, nausea, headache, flu-like symptoms, stiffness in the neck and back, and pain in the limbs, which often resolve completely. Fewer than 1% of polio cases result in permanent paralysis of the limbs (usually the legs).​

    What makes paralysis with polio so rare, and why do people sometimes contract it from this otherwise quite harmless virus? That's the question doctors and scientists ought to investigate. One animal study indicated that low blood sugar may be to blame:

    Even if the disease does progress to paralytic polio, it turns out back in the '40s a French doctor found successful treatment as patient after patient recovered completely after paralysis had set in. Dr. Nevue published his findings in a booklet titled Therapeutic Treatment of Infectious Diseases by Magnesium Chloride--Poliomyelitis which included his case reports of using magnesium chloride to cure even advanced stages of paralytic polio. Excerpts can be found here.

    So although polio is often mentioned as a very frightening disease, after researching the matter I'm honestly not concerned about it at all. To sum up:
    • Most people who contract polio will never experience any symptoms
    • Most who experience symptoms won't identify it as polio because it will act/feel like the flu
    • According to one published scientific study a healthy blood sugar prevents polio from becoming paralytic
    • If it becomes paralytic, substantial anecdotal evidence indicates that a simple and safe over the counter supplement can completely reverse the effects if administered within the necessary time window.
    So....what's this vaccine good for, again?
  20. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Yes, paralytic polio was not terribly common, percentage wise. Yes, not that many died, percentage wise. Translate that to a whole population though. So many caught it it was like the whole population was playing Russian Roulette. At its height over 500,000 per year were claimed to be dying or paralyzed from polio. Thats a lot of people. Then of course there is post polio syndrome. Something very much like ME. I do not know the numbers. Does anyone know what percentage got post polio?

    I had never heard of Dr. Nevue. Was his finding widely adopted? I have a feeling he was ignored. If it had really worked, and he had been listened to, then the peak death/disability numbers would not have been so high. So either it did not work or he was deliberately ignored (which wouldn't surprise me, we see that attitude from the medical profession even today).

    When people did become disabled they spent years in physical therapy, and often walked with a limp or worse. People were afraid of polio. I wonder how much of that was because if it disabled you there were no benefits, nobody to look after you back then?

    Did Dr Nevue ever find magnesium chloride treated post polio syndrome? Was he even aware of it? I wonder how much of the stigma of ME is a hangover from what people thought of post polio?

    Based on what was happening in the 70s and 80s with vaccines and alternative medicine, it might be possible to find some evidence that eradicating polio was an issue drummed up by the media and spin machines. It would take a bit of work however. On the other hand such large numbers were dying or becoming disabled that I think they wouldn't need spin to get the public on board.

    Bye, Alex

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