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The PACE trial [pro]: It’s time to broaden perceptions and move on. Keith Petrie, John Weinman

Yogi

Senior Member
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1,132
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60
Another aspect of people’s causal beliefs about illness is that they often demonstrate a modern-day version of Cartesian dualism and a rather crude division between mind and body. Thus, for the same illness, people may believe strongly in either a physical or a psychological cause, sometimes in a rather simplistic way.

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Lie. No, patients accept that mind and body is linked. It is doctors and in particular psychs who have this cartesian dualism. Also insurance companies pay for physical disability and not for mental disability. This is a complete lie and fabrication of the facts. Psychs refuse to accept the neurological classification of WHO as G93.3 but mislead and manipulate it to a mental classification F48.0. This is cartesian dualism. The PACE authors also advise insurers who benefit from this.

One of the ironies/scandals is that nobody has caused me more stress than the BPS psychs, who are paid to care for patients' mental well-being. Even if their pseudo-scientific theories were correct they would be guilty of incompetence and the mistreatment of patients. As has been mentioned before, there is no way that they would get away with talking about people with schizophrenia in the pejorative way that they repeatedly refer to people with ME/CFS.
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
I think the difficulty is that being invited to an academic meeting and given accommodation and dinner and transport reimbursement is a standard part of the job. I have reimbursed colleagues for thousands of dollars for flying to the UK long haul, staying in hotels and enjoying good conference dinners in return for their educational input to the conference. The difference is that the money was raised from paying delegate fees and educational grants from charities like Wellcome with no vested interest.

So being invited to a meeting in a comfortable environment is not necessarily a 'gift' or 'hospitality'. A meeting on Cook Island is probably not so different from a meeting in Canterbury for an Australian delegate. The room rates on Cook Island are high but where is the line to be drawn? It all boils down to who is doing the inviting and why - what alteration in behaviour on the part of the delegate might be expected to have preceded or followed this invitation?

In practice I think it would be impractical for medical academics to declare whenever they had expenses for meetings covered. But the situation is usually dealt with by the fact that delegates tend to have consultancy agreements with the relevant commercial interests if the source is commercial. So behind the party one would expect there to have been commercial consultancies that should be declared on publications. I think we know of those consultancies in fact. The party simply brings home to me just how close knit this group have been for a very long time.

I think there are two questions:
1) What counts as a gift/hospitality vs expenses. I don't see going to a conference as a gift as you say but having ones family paid for is. If the conference basically has 1 or 2 hours of talks per day then that is stretching it. If I travel with work such as to a conference then obviously I claim my expenses back but there are limits as to what is acceptable - for example, limits on meal prices, hotels and airfares. As you said I don't think that counts as hospitality. Although if I go to a conference I would be expected to be presenting a paper there. Sometimes conferences can end up in holiday resorts because good rates can be negotiated out of season so the cost of the cook island is not necessarily high. I think the line is drawn around a judgement that the event is a proper professional event rather than one with a light program and lots of entertainment. I suspect the tax office also have opinions on this they do on general expense reimbursement and if such expenses fall outside of their rules then they will tax expenses as gifts.
2) Transparency for those who are making or advising government on decisions. Civil servants are very careful (these days) around seeming to not take anything that could be aimed at influencing them or the advice they give. But it seems to me that academics sometimes give advice and this seems to be an area lacking in transparency at the moment. For example, if Wessely is giving advice to the MOD around mental health policy it seems to me that gifts, hospitality and expenses should be recorded and made public at least above a certain amount. The same with paid consultancies they should be declared where academics are helping make policy whether it appears as an explicit conflict of interest or not.

It is worth saying companies have started to get much more concerned about such things as well in part due to the SEC claiming down on things that could be seen on bribery. For example Glaxo were fined $20m by the SEC for a Chinese subsidiary that provided gifts, travel and shopping excursions and the Chinese authorities fined them $498m for bribing doctors https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...llion-sec-fine-over-bribing-chinese-officials . Even for drug companies that is big money. So I suspect things are changing a bit.
 

lilpink

Senior Member
Messages
988
Location
UK
That well known psychologically affected disease aka 'diabetes'. Mmm...


PLOS ONE paper – Vedhara K, Dawe K, Miles JNV, Wetherell MA, Cullum N, Dayan C, et al. (2016)

Illness Beliefs Predict Mortality in Patients with Diabetic Foot Ulcers. PLoS ONE 11(4): e0153315. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0153315


Authors include John Weinman


John Weinman - his role with Atlantis Healthcare - http://www.atlantishealthcare.com/uk/about-us

Atlantis Healthcare's interest in the psychological aspects of diabetes - http://www.atlantishealthcare.com/uk/news/P18

AND -




PLOS ONE statement on competing interests - http://journals.plos.org/plosone/s/competing-interests






 

Yogi

Senior Member
Messages
1,132
That well known psychologically affected disease aka 'diabetes'. Mmm...


PLOS ONE paper – Vedhara K, Dawe K, Miles JNV, Wetherell MA, Cullum N, Dayan C, et al. (2016)

Illness Beliefs Predict Mortality in Patients with Diabetic Foot Ulcers. PLoS ONE 11(4): e0153315. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0153315


Authors include John Weinman


John Weinman - his role with Atlantis Healthcare - http://www.atlantishealthcare.com/uk/about-us

Atlantis Healthcare's interest in the psychological aspects of diabetes - http://www.atlantishealthcare.com/uk/news/P18

AND -




PLOS ONE statement on competing interests - http://journals.plos.org/plosone/s/competing-interests


3 mins in he talks about saving governments money by cutting back spending. I see why these 2 Petrie and Weinmann are very interested in the success of PACE trial.
 

Yogi

Senior Member
Messages
1,132
One of the ironies/scandals is that nobody has caused me more stress than the BPS psychs, who are paid to care for patients' mental well-being. Even if their pseudo-scientific theories were correct they would be guilty of incompetence and the mistreatment of patients. As has been mentioned before, there is no way that they would get away with talking about people with schizophrenia in the pejorative way that they repeatedly refer to people with ME/CFS.


Totally agree. All the stress and psychological harm has been caused by these PACE psychiatrists with their unfounded hypothesis. I had virtually no stress in my life and it is their fraudulent research which causes all psychological stress and harm. Do we have a thread on all the harms caused to patients by the bps psychs -it would be good to publish these in a journal?

It is amazing how psychiatrists do not have the insight into themselves about how their actions are causing psychological and physical harm.

It always interested me how Wessely being a doctor could cause so much physical harm and psychological suffering.

However he is not unique - i was just reading this morning about Dr bashar- al-assad an article which examines how doctors with their training to help patients can go onto harm. The article also refers to Dr Radavan Karadzic (psychiatrist) and Dr Harold Shipman who killed 200 of his own patients.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...as-a-doctor-how-did-he-become-a-mass-murderer


There are interesting views on how someone who once pledged to save lives could so wantonly destroy them. Perhaps he is striving to prove himself to his dead father who had openly favoured his older son who died in a car accident while Assad was becoming an ophthalmologist. The younger Assad was teased for being interested in human blood rather than the blood of politics – this is the revenge of the bullied.

Or more chillingly, all that medical training was just a show and behind the suave specialist lay a murderer who always had the measure of his power. Medical training necessarily inures doctors to pain and suffering: imagine how inefficient a doctor would be if he faltered at a patient’s every tear and cried over every wound. Part of becoming a good doctor is to learn to stand back enough to help, but most doctors experience a continual tightrope in maintaining a professional boundary while being empathetic. Perhaps Assad just dumped the empathy while fortifying the boundary.

Interesting..

Before the psychs try to mislead and exploit this by using this as a threat etc. I am not saying that these psychiatrists are on the same scale as these historical examples but there are similarities and people should be aware of the dark side of some doctors who can choose to harm people instead of care for and help.
 

lilpink

Senior Member
Messages
988
Location
UK
3 mins in he talks about saving governments money by cutting back spending. I see why these 2 Petrie and Weinmann are very interested in the success of PACE trial.


Coming to a health service near you - https://www.england.nhs.uk/mental-health/adults/iapt/mus/sites/ in order to cut physical care costs - https://www.england.nhs.uk/stps/tf-call-to-bid/ [see Improving access to psychological therapies (Integrated IAPT)]


But what if it doesn't work? All that NHS money spent on all those IAPT Psychological Wellbeing Practitioners while the population gets sicker and sicker.
 

slysaint

Senior Member
Messages
2,125
the population gets sicker and sicker.
On a recent prog on the BBC they stated that 'we are all living longer, BUT not healthier'..........they will quite happily pay for a useless course of CBT but say 'resources are too stretched' to warrant a home visit by a doctor, which means a call to 999, which ends up costing much more in time and resources.
Meanwhile those with serious mental health issues are sat on waiting lists and left to fend for themselves.
It makes me so angry that (once again) these people that they are purporting to support end up with a watered down service that does little to tackle the real problems.
 

RogerBlack

Senior Member
Messages
902
I have not read the above claims on DIabetes.
In this specific case, illness beliefs may in fact cause increased illness and hence mortality.
If you believe that it's going to kill you, for example, you may be less likely to carefully manage insulin and diet, and get prompt treatment for 'minor' foot problems.
Or are they going further than this?
 

Large Donner

Senior Member
Messages
866
But what if it doesn't work? All that NHS money spent on all those IAPT Psychological Wellbeing Practitioners while the population gets sicker and sicker.

Yes but they dont care this is just the means to make the bottom line look more healthy before they sell off the business to private industry. Its a well known strategy.
 

Jan

Senior Member
Messages
458
Location
Devon UK
Yes but they dont care this is just the means to make the bottom line look more healthy before they sell off the business to private industry. Its a well known strategy.

The question is, why are governments so stupid as to fall for it? They won't save any money at all, just spend it on the wrong 'treatment' for the wrong people. I know they can be then be 'seen to be doing something' but what is the point?
 

Large Donner

Senior Member
Messages
866
The question is, why are governments so stupid as to fall for it?

The problem is when there is no difference between governments and corporations when the revolving door is in full spin government is just a means of making policy to suit your own interests.

They won't save any money at all, just spend it on the wrong 'treatment' for the wrong people.

Governments only think short term.

I know they can be then be 'seen to be doing something' but what is the point?

To win, or more importantly to not lose, the next election.
 
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JamBob

Senior Member
Messages
191
I have not read the above claims on DIabetes.
In this specific case, illness beliefs may in fact cause increased illness and hence mortality.
If you believe that it's going to kill you, for example, you may be less likely to carefully manage insulin and diet, and get prompt treatment for 'minor' foot problems.
Or are they going further than this?


As a T1 diabetic I agree with you. Illness beliefs can definitely impact on outcomes in diabetes as treatment requires a high degree of input and self-management from the patient. I have a relative with insulin dependent diabetes who takes a very passive outlook and has what psychologists would call an "external locus of control" ie. he thinks that doctors know best and will tell him what to do etc. His blood sugars are often out of control and he has developed complications. In reality doctors aren't able to treat diabetes - it's patients who have to make the complex dosing decisions all day every day.

In contrast another relative has a very proactive approach with a strongly "internal locus of control". He proactively manages his diabetes, insulin, diet and exercise and has near-normal blood sugar levels with no complications.
 

RogerBlack

Senior Member
Messages
902
I think you may be jumping to conclusions. Is it the beliefs that make the difference or the skilled management?

For conditions that are not routinely monitored all the time (and for a diabetic, that would pretty much mean an attendant 24*7), beliefs can clearly lead fairly directly to worsened condition due to poor control exacerbating symptoms.

I'm not sure that saying this is any less valid than 'beliefs about diet can lead to obesity'. Yes, in principle, with 24*7 attendance and managment by a third party, those beliefs don't matter, but...

Yes, of course, the added step should be put in there 'beliefs about diet can lead to diet and exercise choices that lead to obesity'. But I'm not sure the lack is important, for the case where there is a clear physical link. For CFS, it's more important to point out that any psychogenic cause may cause worsening due to poorer activity control, and similar.
 

Barry53

Senior Member
Messages
2,391
Location
UK
But what if it doesn't work? All that NHS money spent on all those IAPT Psychological Wellbeing Practitioners while the population gets sicker and sicker.
Unfortunately it is often not about whether it works, just about whether the spin "doctors" ( ha! ) succeed.