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Some concerns about homeopathy

Woolie

Senior Member
Messages
3,263
@erin, you have exhibited incredible fortitude in sticking out this thread. I'm not at all interested in attacking your belief that homeopathy works. You're very fortunate you've found something that does. And your approach seems to be quite moderate - you're not rejecting conventional medicine entirely.

I only decided to post here when I saw absolutes and false claims creeping in. The kind of arguments that are commonly exploited by the CAM industry to their own advantage. These should not go unquestioned.

1. Homeopathy is an alternative to the money grubbing big pharma-ridden enterprise we call conventional medicine.
I find this argument abhorrent, because its so hypocritical. Given the profit margins of the homeopathic industry. If you make your own homeopathic medicines, then you can say this. But not if you buy commercial preparations.

By all means, feel free to criticise the pharmaceutical industry, but not as a way of defending some other equally rapacious industry. If you really don't like big corporations making money out of your illness, then opt for genuinely natural medicine - diet and lifestyle practices. Not pills or preparations.

2. Homeopathy is an alternative to Western medicine. Western medicine is arrogant and disrespectful of other cultures.
It is looked down on it as old fashion, backward because the "West" had to be followed strictly.
Homeopathy is a Western tradition.
 

skipskip30

Senior Member
Messages
237
Try explaining this ti skipskip30.:)

Oh I know there's not even much sugar in them. Just like there's nothing else in the majority of cases. Brain fog just only allowed me to think of sugar pills at the time.

Please don't get personal Erin. Ive tried hard to stay talking about the topic at hand and not the poster. It's been tough and I haven't done it very well but I'm trying and I'd appreciate the same in return.

*edited for clarity*
 
Last edited:

erin

Senior Member
Messages
885
@erin, you have exhibited incredible fortitude in sticking out this thread. I'm not at all interested in attacking your belief that homeopathy works. You're very fortunate you've found something that does. And your approach seems to be quite moderate - you're not rejecting conventional medicine entirely.

I'm unable to accept sweeping statements in general. I do not believe that homeopathy works! It works for some. It worked for me most of the time and it did not in several occasions. I am not GENERALIZING and sticking out for homeopathy as a whole. If you can see I am only speaking about my experience in general.

I only decided to post here when I saw absolutes and false claims creeping in. The kind of arguments that are commonly exploited by the CAM industry to their own advantage. These should not go unquestioned.

Fair enough, but I'm not even claiming anything. It is just an experience I had. This is not a claim in my part.

1. Homeopathy is an alternative to the money grubbing big pharma-ridden enterprise we call conventional medicine.
I find this argument abhorrent, because its so hypocritical. Given the profit margins of the homeopathic industry. If you make your own homeopathic medicines, then you can say this. But not if you buy commercial preparations.

I fail to see it this way. Because homeopathy is really not used widely in the world in general. Let alone not even in the west. Many people do not even heard the name. If you really have numbers that you can supply that it is an alternative I'll see in the same way as you do. I really think it is negligible industry. I feel you are worried about this because you are so sure that it is quackery and this maybe scares you.

Some people can make their own homeopathic remedies, it is not that difficult apparently.

By all means, feel free to criticise the pharmaceutical industry,

To criticize pharmaceutical industry on its own is meaningless. I criticize their alliance with NHS's of the world governments.

It's gonna be diverting the subject a bit; recently my father in law has been experiencing nausea after exertion. He is an elderly person. Then his GP goes and prescribes Omeprazol and Gaviscon for this! I mean he does not even consider that this could be more of a vascular issue since it is experienced ONLY after exertion. (I mean he is in his 80'is when I say exertion he does not run marathons etc., just simple 5 minutes hoovering, drying the dishes). But instead of a CT scan of veins around GI system he's just given two generic rubbish medicine. This is what I'm criticizing in general. How easy and acceptable to sell those medicine to this patient. He'll listen to his GP, he does not want to know it might be vascular. Easy fix, sold!

but not as a way of defending some other equally rapacious industry. If you really don't like big corporations making money out of your illness, then opt for genuinely natural medicine - diet and lifestyle practices. Not pills or preparations.

I really am not defending anything. I'm maybe defending freedom of speech. I've just talked about my experience of homeopathy here in this thread. It's up to the members what to make of it.

And thank you for the advice, I'm aware of life style changes can help and you could see me in many threads here in PR about those.

2. Homeopathy is an alternative to Western medicine. Western medicine is arrogant and disrespectful of other cultures.
Homeopathy is a Western tradition.

I know homeopathy is a western tradition. I'm not so sure what are you trying to say in this paragraph really. Western medicine and its disrespect for not only other cultures but culture ( as in social area) is a very large subject. Let's not divert further more.

Homeopathy is definitely not an alternative to western medicine in "underdeveloped" areas in the world although it is a western tradition.
 

erin

Senior Member
Messages
885
Oh I know there's not even much sugar in them. Just like there's nothing else in the majority of cases. Brain fog just only allowed me to think of sugar pills at the time.

Please don't get personal Erin. Ive tried hard to stay talking about the topic at hand and not the poster. It's been tough and I haven't done it very well but I'm trying and I'd appreciate the same in return.

*edited for clarity*

Personal?:jaw-drop:

Why do you say this? It's just a bit of a joke. I found you quite humorous in your posts. Maybe I'm assuming.

I think you've done well. Why is it tough though? We're just exchanging views here.

I'm not trying to belittle you or anything like that. If it comes across that way I do apologize.
 

Woolie

Senior Member
Messages
3,263
It's gonna be diverting the subject a bit; recently my father in law has been experiencing nausea after exertion. He is an elderly person. Then his GP goes and prescribes Omeprazol and Gaviscon for this! I mean he does not even consider that this could be more of a vascular issue since it is experienced ONLY after exertion. (I mean he is in his 80'is when I say exertion he does not run marathons etc., just simple 5 minutes hoovering, drying the dishes). But instead of a CT scan of veins around GI system he's just given two generic rubbish medicine. This is what I'm criticizing in general. How easy and acceptable to sell those medicine to this patient. He'll listen to his GP, he does not want to know it might be vascular. Easy fix, sold!
If we start a thread about the ways in which doctors and conventional medicine are flawed, you and I would be very much on the same side!

Its just doesn't make homeopathy any better. That needs to be judged on its own merits - evidence of effectiveness, etc.

I'm sorry about the wording of that last email. Those things about 'opt for genuinely natural medicine' were not supposed read as directions for you personally. Just to anyone how objects to big business getting mixed up in our health. If you took them as personal directions, you must have thought me very patronizing.
 

erin

Senior Member
Messages
885
If we start a thread about the ways in which doctors and conventional medicine are flawed, you and I would be very much on the same side!

Its just doesn't make homeopathy any better. That needs to be judged on its own merits - evidence of effectiveness, etc.

I'm sorry about the wording of that last email. Those things about 'opt for genuinely natural medicine' were not supposed read as directions for you personally. Just to anyone how objects to big business getting mixed up in our health. If you took them as personal directions, you must have thought me very patronizing.

I'm aware that homeopathy is better because of the flaws of the conventional medicine. I'm not even saying it's better. All I'm saying is it worked with me at times. That's all I'm saying. I'm not generalize anything. Evidence of effectiveness is another subject we can go on forever with conventional medicine too.

No, I didn't think you are or were patronizing. You are quite pleasant to communicate with.:)
 

wdb

Senior Member
Messages
1,392
Location
London
Just published in the last few days:

There cannot be two kinds of medicine: EU scientists shred homeopathy, alt med
“There is only medicine that has been adequately tested and medicine that has not...”

An organization representing scientific academies throughout Europe released a statement Wednesday that squarely bashed homeopathy as nonsense and warned that the “promotion and use of homeopathic products risks significant harms.”

The statement by the European Academies Science Advisory Council (EASAC)—an umbrella organization representing 29 national and international scientific academies in Europe, including the Royal Society (UK) and Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences—is intended to influence policy and regulations across the European Union. The EASAC emphasized the need to “reinforce criticisms” by scientists as the markets for homeopathy in the EU and US continue to grow.


https://arstechnica.com/science/201...eopathy-throw-shade-at-alternative-medicines/
http://www.easac.eu/home/reports-and-statements/detail-view/article/homeopathic.html
 

digital dog

Senior Member
Messages
646
I have very little faith in homeopathy but I just wanted to ask if those of you on here who feel homeopathy is worthless have actually been to a renowned homeopath and taken the pills.

My mother in law throws up constantly on boat journeys when she forgets her homeopathic sea sickness pills but is fine when she has them. She is not the typical homeopathic advocator but swears by them.

That is the only reason why I feel they may be worth trying. That, and the fact, that they do not seem to harm people.

That being said, I have VERY little hope that they actually work.

Would any of you be interested in seeing a homeopath if they were top of their field and it was completely free?
 

arewenearlythereyet

Senior Member
Messages
1,478
I have very little faith in homeopathy but I just wanted to ask if those of you on here who feel homeopathy is worthless have actually been to a renowned homeopath and taken the pills.

My mother in law throws up constantly on boat journeys when she forgets her homeopathic sea sickness pills but is fine when she has them. She is not the typical homeopathic advocator but swears by them.

That is the only reason why I feel they may be worth trying. That, and the fact, that they do not seem to harm people.

That being said, I have VERY little hope that they actually work.

Would any of you be interested in seeing a homeopath if they were top of their field and it was completely free?
I'm going to say no. This is for the same reason I wouldn't go up on stage and be hypnotised.....I just don't like the idea of being manipulated. It's like an invasion of privacy for me.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
My mother in law throws up constantly on boat journeys when she forgets her homeopathic sea sickness pills but is fine when she has them. She is not the typical homeopathic advocator but swears by them.
Homeopathic treatments aren't regulated, so there could really be anything in them, including something which can have an effect on nausea. Also, some products labeled and marketed as homeopathic are actually naturopathic ... so might contain substantial doses of natural remedies such as ginger.

I wouldn't see a free homeopath anymore than I'd see a free psychologist or doctor who thinks CBT or GET can cure ME, even if they were at the top of their field. "Quack of the Year" or even "Top Quack in the World" isn't a title which impresses me :p
 

skipskip30

Senior Member
Messages
237
I have very little faith in homeopathy but I just wanted to ask if those of you on here who feel homeopathy is worthless have actually been to a renowned homeopath and taken the pills.

My mother in law throws up constantly on boat journeys when she forgets her homeopathic sea sickness pills but is fine when she has them. She is not the typical homeopathic advocator but swears by them.

That is the only reason why I feel they may be worth trying. That, and the fact, that they do not seem to harm people.

That being said, I have VERY little hope that they actually work.

Would any of you be interested in seeing a homeopath if they were top of their field and it was completely free?

As a child yes i did. It made absolutely no difference at all.

So am I allowed to hold my opinion that homeopathy is a load of dangerous rubbish now?
 

TigerLilea

Senior Member
Messages
1,147
Location
Vancouver, British Columbia
Would any of you be interested in seeing a homeopath if they were top of their field and it was completely free?
No. Been there - done that. After having researched homeopathy, I don't consider it to be anything other than quackery. Possibly the reason the sea sickness pills worked for your M-I-L was the placebo effect. She expected them to work so they did.
 
Messages
1
There was a recent thread about how to respectfully challenge other peoples' efficacy claims about treatments that they thought had helped them, and if this could even be done. Homeopathy came up as an example of a treatment that gets a lot of criticism, and I thought I might try to explain why I think homeopathy should get a lot of criticism here, at least partly in response to requests to challenge people's arguments.



Sorry if this is a bit long-winded.

History of homeopathy, and the theories it's founded upon:

Homeopathy was developed on the basis of the theory that 'like cures like'. It seems that even keen homeopathy supporters would now recognises that this theory is nonsense.

"Homeopathic proving" was conducted to assess what substances led to what symptoms in test subjects. Then 'medicines' were created by greatly diluting these substances in order to reduce side-effects which worsened the symptoms that they were intended to treat.

The intensive dilution (or "potentization") used to create most homeopathic treatments means that it is unlikely that there is even a single molecule of the original active (like cures like) substance in most people's homeopathic medicine. Homeopathy's originator recommended a dilution ration of 1:10 to the power of 60. It's as pure a placebo as one could hope for.

What about quantum mechanics?:

This came up in the previous thread, and I see it come up quite often in attempted defences of homeopathy, so thought that I'd explain why I think that this is a weak point.

There a lot of confusing stuff going on at a quantum level, and I don't pretend to really understand any of it. But that doesn't mean it can be used to justify homeopathic medicine in any meaningful way. It's possible for Holocaust deniers to argue that a modern understanding of time and the probabilistic nature of matter means that the Holocaust may never have 'happened'... or that perhaps someone learnt how to manipulate quantum fluctuations so as to fabricate the 'evidence' of the Nazi holocaust... anything is possible. But if there's no good positive evidence that strange quantum shenanigans lead to homeopathy being an effective treatment for anything (or challenge our understanding of the Holcaust!) what value is there in bringing it up? One might as well just say 'it could be magic'.

The theories may be rubbish, but that doesn't mean it's not still effective:

It's true that the fact that the underlying theories for homeopathy are nonsense doesn't mean that homeopathic medicine cannot be helpful. Maybe homeopaths just got really lucky? A lot of effective medicines have been developed thanks to large doses of luck. In this case, with the specific theories underlying heomeopathy, and the specific ways in which they are nonsense, that does seems extremely unlikely.

Also, the evidence we have indicates that homeopathic medicines don't work.

Here's an eg of a review: https://theconversation.com/no-evidence-homeopathy-is-effective-nhmrc-review-25368

There will be occaisional studies that show a positive effect (even for a worthless treatment we'd still expect one in twenty rigorous studies to show a significant difference from a placebo group, and there are also a lot of badly designed homeopathy studies out there), but the totality of evidence fails to show positive value for homeopathy, and certainly nothing like the positive effect over placebo that we'd expect if this was a sensible use of resources.

Why have people used it for so long then?:

I don't know, but there are probably lots of different reason, many I'm not aware of. Lots of ineffective treatments get used for a long time and that doesn't provide any evidence of their value.

For a pretty long time a placebo intervention would be better than the blood letting of 'mainstream' medicine. Even until very recently, it doesn't suprise me that the British Royal Family are keen on homeopathy, as they'll otherwise have had the extensive interventions of the leading 'experts' of the day: keen to validate their exciting new theories on an heir to the throne - a placebo will often be better than that.

Also, there is often a social pressure to seek some form of 'treatment' if one suffers from health problems. When suffering from health problems that lack an effective treatment, homeopathy provides a relatively easy way of responding to those social pressures.

Some people just value the 'therapeutic encounter'. Having someone present themselves as an expert committed to helping with ones health problems can be emotionally pleasing, and a reassuring way of shifting concerns to another, even if they are just a quack. When I hear from people who value the UK's CFS centres, they often seem to value them in this way.

What's the harm if it is just placebo?

There is a danger of people not pursuing more useful treatments, although that's less of an issue for CFS it can be a real problem for more committed fans of homeopathy.

Personally, I don't like people making money from the sick with unfounded claims of treatment efficacy. It bugs me. It takes advantage of people's desperation and wastes their resources. If all the money CFS patients had spent on worthless treatments had instead been invested into medical research, then we'd be in a much better position today.

If people endorse quackery like homeopathy then it will partially undermine any complaints they make about the way mainstream medicine has treated them. When their are such problems with how many with CFS have been treated, this can be a real problem.

Also, lots of people in society are aware of all of the problems with homeopathy I've mentioned above. While homeopathy can be used to relieve social pressure to seek treatment, use of homeopathy can also lead to more social problems. For a lot of people out there, if a patient with CFS says "I'm seeing a homeopath" that can be interpreted as meaning "I'm unreasonable and nothing I say about my health can be trusted". I don't think that's fair, but there are a lot of unfair attitudes about CFS already out there, and patients who associate themselves with quackery risk causing further social problems for themselves, often in ways that they are not fully aware of.

There are lots of treatments being promoted with no real evidence base - why pick on homeopathy?

Because it's easy, and I'm ill and lazy.

I do have a concern that homeopathy attracts more criticism than potentially more dangerous forms of 'alternative' medicine just because it is more obviously nonsense than a lot of other things. When I see people posting about some other things on here that sound very dodgy I often have to decide whether or not I want to spend my time investigating and then debating something that looks like dangerous quackery. More recently, I've generally been deciding to leave it (I've been involved in quite a few long discussions about things like this in the past). In an ideal world we'd all be engaging critically with one anothers ideas non-stop, but this is not an ideal world.

Also, in discussions on PR about the problems with claims made about the efficacy of CBT/GET, 'homeopathy' has become a useful shorthand for 'quackery that no-one in mainstream medicine respects', and pointing to similar problems with claims made about the effiacy for CBT/GET and homeopathy can be a useful tactic for challenging those who consider themselves 'skeptics' yet have dismissed concerns about PACE. 'Homeopathy' can be a useful symbol in those sorts of discussions, but it's often done on the assumption that readers are already dismissive of homeopathy, without any explanation being given as to why people should be dismissive.

Because of the way that they're seen as a part of 'mainstream' medicine (this having a considerable impact on how they're promoted to patients) I think that it's more important to criticise the quackery which surrounds CBT and GET than 'alternative' forms of quackery. But that's just my priority for how I want to spen my energy, and it certainly doesn't mean that I think it's okay for those making money from 'alternative' treatments to set themselves lower standards for the evidence required to justify claims of a treatment's efficacy.

Just to be clear: I don't feel any ill-will to other patients who are using homeopathy. I don't feel smug about the fact that they're doing something that I think it ridiculous. I've done lots of things that I now realise were ridiculous, and I'm grateful to the people who pointed out when I was making mistakes. I think that for a healthy intellectual community we all need to be trying to pick apart one anothers' claims and beliefs in the hope of improving ourselves and getting close to the truth. Best wishes to everyone.

edit: @barbc56 posted this link summarising some of the possible reasons ineffective treatments can seem to work, even though when they're tested in a properly conducted trial the evidence shows that they do not:
There was a recent thread about how to respectfully challenge other peoples' efficacy claims about treatments that they thought had helped them, and if this could even be done. Homeopathy came up as an example of a treatment that gets a lot of criticism, and I thought I might try to explain why I think homeopathy should get a lot of criticism here, at least partly in response to requests to challenge people's arguments.



Sorry if this is a bit long-winded.

History of homeopathy, and the theories it's founded upon:

Homeopathy was developed on the basis of the theory that 'like cures like'. It seems that even keen homeopathy supporters would now recognises that this theory is nonsense.

"Homeopathic proving" was conducted to assess what substances led to what symptoms in test subjects. Then 'medicines' were created by greatly diluting these substances in order to reduce side-effects which worsened the symptoms that they were intended to treat.

The intensive dilution (or "potentization") used to create most homeopathic treatments means that it is unlikely that there is even a single molecule of the original active (like cures like) substance in most people's homeopathic medicine. Homeopathy's originator recommended a dilution ration of 1:10 to the power of 60. It's as pure a placebo as one could hope for.

What about quantum mechanics?:

This came up in the previous thread, and I see it come up quite often in attempted defences of homeopathy, so thought that I'd explain why I think that this is a weak point.

There a lot of confusing stuff going on at a quantum level, and I don't pretend to really understand any of it. But that doesn't mean it can be used to justify homeopathic medicine in any meaningful way. It's possible for Holocaust deniers to argue that a modern understanding of time and the probabilistic nature of matter means that the Holocaust may never have 'happened'... or that perhaps someone learnt how to manipulate quantum fluctuations so as to fabricate the 'evidence' of the Nazi holocaust... anything is possible. But if there's no good positive evidence that strange quantum shenanigans lead to homeopathy being an effective treatment for anything (or challenge our understanding of the Holcaust!) what value is there in bringing it up? One might as well just say 'it could be magic'.

The theories may be rubbish, but that doesn't mean it's not still effective:

It's true that the fact that the underlying theories for homeopathy are nonsense doesn't mean that homeopathic medicine cannot be helpful. Maybe homeopaths just got really lucky? A lot of effective medicines have been developed thanks to large doses of luck. In this case, with the specific theories underlying heomeopathy, and the specific ways in which they are nonsense, that does seems extremely unlikely.

Also, the evidence we have indicates that homeopathic medicines don't work.

Here's an eg of a review: https://theconversation.com/no-evidence-homeopathy-is-effective-nhmrc-review-25368

There will be occaisional studies that show a positive effect (even for a worthless treatment we'd still expect one in twenty rigorous studies to show a significant difference from a placebo group, and there are also a lot of badly designed homeopathy studies out there), but the totality of evidence fails to show positive value for homeopathy, and certainly nothing like the positive effect over placebo that we'd expect if this was a sensible use of resources.

Why have people used it for so long then?:

I don't know, but there are probably lots of different reason, many I'm not aware of. Lots of ineffective treatments get used for a long time and that doesn't provide any evidence of their value.

For a pretty long time a placebo intervention would be better than the blood letting of 'mainstream' medicine. Even until very recently, it doesn't suprise me that the British Royal Family are keen on homeopathy, as they'll otherwise have had the extensive interventions of the leading 'experts' of the day: keen to validate their exciting new theories on an heir to the throne - a placebo will often be better than that.

Also, there is often a social pressure to seek some form of 'treatment' if one suffers from health problems. When suffering from health problems that lack an effective treatment, homeopathy provides a relatively easy way of responding to those social pressures.

Some people just value the 'therapeutic encounter'. Having someone present themselves as an expert committed to helping with ones health problems can be emotionally pleasing, and a reassuring way of shifting concerns to another, even if they are just a quack. When I hear from people who value the UK's CFS centres, they often seem to value them in this way.

What's the harm if it is just placebo?

There is a danger of people not pursuing more useful treatments, although that's less of an issue for CFS it can be a real problem for more committed fans of homeopathy.

Personally, I don't like people making money from the sick with unfounded claims of treatment efficacy. It bugs me. It takes advantage of people's desperation and wastes their resources. If all the money CFS patients had spent on worthless treatments had instead been invested into medical research, then we'd be in a much better position today.

If people endorse quackery like homeopathy then it will partially undermine any complaints they make about the way mainstream medicine has treated them. When their are such problems with how many with CFS have been treated, this can be a real problem.

Also, lots of people in society are aware of all of the problems with homeopathy I've mentioned above. While homeopathy can be used to relieve social pressure to seek treatment, use of homeopathy can also lead to more social problems. For a lot of people out there, if a patient with CFS says "I'm seeing a homeopath" that can be interpreted as meaning "I'm unreasonable and nothing I say about my health can be trusted". I don't think that's fair, but there are a lot of unfair attitudes about CFS already out there, and patients who associate themselves with quackery risk causing further social problems for themselves, often in ways that they are not fully aware of.

There are lots of treatments being promoted with no real evidence base - why pick on homeopathy?

Because it's easy, and I'm ill and lazy.

I do have a concern that homeopathy attracts more criticism than potentially more dangerous forms of 'alternative' medicine just because it is more obviously nonsense than a lot of other things. When I see people posting about some other things on here that sound very dodgy I often have to decide whether or not I want to spend my time investigating and then debating something that looks like dangerous quackery. More recently, I've generally been deciding to leave it (I've been involved in quite a few long discussions about things like this in the past). In an ideal world we'd all be engaging critically with one anothers ideas non-stop, but this is not an ideal world.

Also, in discussions on PR about the problems with claims made about the efficacy of CBT/GET, 'homeopathy' has become a useful shorthand for 'quackery that no-one in mainstream medicine respects', and pointing to similar problems with claims made about the effiacy for CBT/GET and homeopathy can be a useful tactic for challenging those who consider themselves 'skeptics' yet have dismissed concerns about PACE. 'Homeopathy' can be a useful symbol in those sorts of discussions, but it's often done on the assumption that readers are already dismissive of homeopathy, without any explanation being given as to why people should be dismissive.

Because of the way that they're seen as a part of 'mainstream' medicine (this having a considerable impact on how they're promoted to patients) I think that it's more important to criticise the quackery which surrounds CBT and GET than 'alternative' forms of quackery. But that's just my priority for how I want to spen my energy, and it certainly doesn't mean that I think it's okay for those making money from 'alternative' treatments to set themselves lower standards for the evidence required to justify claims of a treatment's efficacy.

Just to be clear: I don't feel any ill-will to other patients who are using homeopathy. I don't feel smug about the fact that they're doing something that I think it ridiculous. I've done lots of things that I now realise were ridiculous, and I'm grateful to the people who pointed out when I was making mistakes. I think that for a healthy intellectual community we all need to be trying to pick apart one anothers' claims and beliefs in the hope of improving ourselves and getting close to the truth. Best wishes to everyone.

edit: @barbc56 posted this link summarising some of the possible reasons ineffective treatments can seem to work, even though when they're tested in a properly conducted trial the evidence shows that they do not: