Reverse Therapy; Mickel Therapy and Gupta Amygdala Retraining: addressing the ANS

[Little Bluestem]

The solution for Chronic Fatigue syndrome is right here on the Reverse Therapy website and it contains all the information you will ever need on how to be well.

I do not believe that any one person can be the only person to have the complete answer to anything. This is arrogance beyond words.

Stop using M.E. Chat Forums and M.E. Support Groups.

Stop listening to medical doctors. With some exceptions (such as the wonderful medics we have on the Reverse Therapy team!)

If someone you knew personally tried to prevent you from having contract with other people and control you to this extent, he would be considered emotionally abusive.

If you have made friends in a forum or a group then meet them elsewhere.

Since transcontinental travel is so cheap and easy!

 

[Dufresne]

"This is not psychotherapy, there is no patient-blaming and they don't see the cause of the illness in your head."

Yes, they do. They think that the cause of ME is the patients reaction to stress (yours and mine). So it is "your" fault. They think that you can stop your reactions and therefore cure your physical disease.

The tools don't "just happen" to be psychological - they are psychological because they are trying to deal with a psychological condition. The rest is just window dressing.

By all means address your own personal psychological and lifestyle problems but please don't support Gupta and Mickel in their claims to cure ME.

There is no science behind this or any proof that their theories are correct. They may be able to help people with stress reactions to give them their due but that's not going to cure a co-morbid neurological disease.

I did NLP early on in my disease and used similar methods. They made no difference at all to the viral symptoms I had then and still do now.

I really don't put a lot of stock in most studies, and a good deal of them are just comical. I'm sure scientists can either prove or disprove the salubriousness of eating a ham sandwich using essentially the same criteria. I support science but the patience needed to get to the "truth", with one's health hanging in the balance, years ticking by, is more than I can manage. I've made considerable progress following the work of clinicians and the experiences of fellow patients, and trying a whole bunch of stuff not supported by science.

Anyway, for better or worse, here's a "study" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22385563

I think it's unsophisticated to write such interventions off as merely psychological. Tell those people curing their cancer that visualization is a waste of time. There have been positive studies on this phenomenon.

I've had my own experience with the healing ability of the mind. As a kid I had numerous warts on my arm and underwent repeated topical treatments with liquid nitrogen, which I assure you is not a pleasant experience. After a year of this, with no success, the sympathetic nurse administering the treatments said to my mother, "sometimes if the patient really wants the warts to go away, they will." So my mother offered me a fifteen gallon aquarium for my new fish if the warts went away. This was well selected as she knew I felt so bad for this fish confined to a 2 litre bowl. Within a week, all 30 or so warts disappeared, never to return. And remember, warts are caused by a virus. So was this psychological? Or was this coincidence? There are lots of reports of this very same thing happening. It's not a rare occurrence.

 

[WoolPippi]

I think/hope once people read the free booklet from Reverse Therapy it provides a context for the blogposts that are quoted and are dissected sentence for sentence in this thread.

With the context the meaning of the blogposts changes considerable from how they are perceived at the moment.
Besides, I read that dr. Eaton isn't a man who converses with much nuances so I'd take his blogposts with a grain of salt. The booklet is the core/context of the therapy. The blogpost is not.

The booklet is free under Creative Commons, it's called "Reverse Therapy for Health". Here's one source.

Example: at the bottom of p 27 it's stated that PWME shouldn't take the advice from medical experts to lie down and rest as much as possible. (This is also one of the blog post points Wildcat quotes.)
Well this sentence is going make our tails bushy. What arrogance!

But if you read p 27, p 28 and p 29 it is explained how this advice and all this resting plays into the constant loop "headmind" (= ratio/thinking brain part/your mental voice/analytical part) creates to try and control/solve the I-am-ill-situation. Which in turn is partly caused because "headmind" (or we) don't pay enough attention to "bodymind" (= gut feeling/intuition/body/amygdala) and what it wants headmind/us to change in our life (get away from toxic people/speak your opinion/have more fun in your life)
It doesn't say we shouldn't lie down and rest. It says we shouldn't do so because we are ill.

I stopped pacing and resting. Nowadays I lie down because I want to have an hour of peace and quiet and surf pleasant things on the net or doze with the cat or knit something while I wear my sound mufflers.

It's the same activity but the approach is the complete opposite. And whatdoyouknow, the result differs because of it. I no longer am exhausted before, during or after lying down. I now lie down and enjoy my unplanned time of leisure and then I'm refreshed and looking forward to do something else that's suddenly caught my fancy. I flutter from one activity to another, just following my gut/inspiration/fancy.

I'm in a total different state of mind these days, my nervous system has relaxed, I'm out of frantic looking for answers/a cure, I'm out of Fight or Flight, I'm no longer wired nor tired. I am actually having happy days.

Please read the booklet. Your tail will get bushy now and then, mine did too.

 

[GhostGum]

In the past I would have likely written off such a thing, and I still question its relevance, since for severe sufferers with underlying biological complications, this will likely do next to nothing, and they will not even be able to participate.

But for myself, after 16+ months of hypnotherapy (which appears very similar to the explanations in the OP) I have little doubt at all these types of methods can play a part, but I think it is likely only for those with only a moderate condition but most likely those who have actually come some way in recovering and healing. I say that because I have no doubt at all due to the extent of suffering involved with this condition, that it leaves deep scares that could do with a little care, and we end up in such a serious 'survival mode' and just trying to desperately cope day to day, that even after solid improvement these mechanisms can remain.

Now to try and explain, based on my understanding, we are talking about neural pathways that become hard-wired and predominant due to certain events or habits over time, and with certain techniques they can be changed and replaced with more ideal ones.

I am still having difficulties to this day, about 2 years doing methylation treatment which I have no doubt at all has helped me healed, especially neurologically, but the therapy has also helped me work through the endless array of bad feelings from suffering so badly for nearly a decade and a half, and has connected me with feelings from my past I basically forgot I had; vivid clear summer days spent at my grandparents farm when I was 5. Its hard to hold onto them, but the more I work on it the more I get it back and are implemented into my day to day. Its no solution to all my problems, but boy is it nice to rediscover such things and generally be more at peace, more content with life and the world, and quite frankly it makes me much more comfortable, reduce symptoms and even helps me manage my energy better. It almost sounds stupid, recalling some memory from 3 decades ago, but when you continue recalling it, working with it and reconnect it in the brain more and more solidly, over negative impressions; its no joke and clearly influences emotion/biology.

Also doubt it is for everyone, your average person will struggle to participate with such things and avoid them, because going into your sub-conscious and digging around is not always fun; its generally better self preservation to maintain a practical mind set and try to just move forward. But the fact remains that everything that has happened to us in our life leaves impressions and much of it is all under there, and I think the physical suffering and trauma of all types of disease and illness can easily leave impressions long term.

 

[Wayne]

we end up in such a serious 'survival mode' and just trying to desperately cope day to day, that even after solid improvement these mechanisms can remain.

Hi @GhostGum,

Nice post. Your above comment reminds me of a story I heard once that may have relevance. Apparently, when elephant trainers in a circus get a new elephant, they chain it to a large, sturdy tree stump. The elephant will generally put great effort into trying to get itself free from this captivity, but eventually learns that it can't.

Once that decisive moment arrives, the elephant trainer from that point forward use a small, fake tree stump to keep control over the animal. He just takes the mobile tree stump where he wants to keep the animal, puts a chain around it and the elephant, and the elephant "knows" it cannot escape. I think the term that was used to describe this phenomena was called "learned helplessness", or perhaps it was "learned hopelessness".

I sometimes wonder if this is an apt analogy for what some who've been very ill with ME/CFS may experience--and then go on to make improvements using therapies like Reverse Therapy. Perhaps they did improve physically, but couldn't translate their improvements into their normal, every day life, and this kind of therapy was just what was needed.

For a while, I stayed open to this possibility for myself, but now feel that's not the case with me. The reason being is I've noticed that when I've experienced brief periods of improvements at various times, my "whole system" seems to come alive to a greater degree, and I begin to experience ways of being that I could recall from some of my earlier years when I was strong and healthy.

I think my kind of positive experience would be more likely (probably far more likely) for most pwME/CFS, instead of the "learned helplessness" I mentioned above. I also think that the many things I do on a regular basis to heal myself keeps my body, mind and spirit poised for any new health improvement that may come along. From what I heard about Mickel, Reverse, Lightning and other therapies, they don't really seem to compare qualitatively to the spiritual and energetic practices I've incorporated into my daily life.

Thanks for your post!

 

[Hope78]

A friend of mine came down with severe cfs after catching ebv. She was bedridden for years and made a great recovery following the Gupta programme. She is able to exercice again although tests still show some abnormalities of the immune system. She also still has food intolerances. But her energy level is fully restored.
Every person is individual and I guess people who are very young when getting ill may have some advantages. She was only 25 then.
She said Gupta really saved her life. And she was also supported by a cfs trained doctor. So I guess the two approaches might have worked perfectly together.

 

[boohealth]

David Mickel is wonderful and he helped me in profound ways--an angel.

 

[boohealth]

@I2009, you spent 10 years working with a Mickel therapist? I've never heard of anyone doing it for a decade. Why did you persist if it didn't help at all? It either helps or doesn't, much more quickly. I did work directly with Dr. Mickel, so I am not sure how a person trained in the therapy might have interpreted it. Blaming never happened in my case. Also, it was never sold to me as a cure. Sorry you had no help.

 

[WoolPippi]

I've been doing Reverse Therapy for six weeks now. I've had two skype sessions with a RT counselor at 80 British pounds a piece. Very worthy.

I'm happy, active, at peace. I have fun. I have energy. No worries. I have had some great days.
I still do all the things I've learned to do with ME: rest, supplement, eat well. But I feel better, mentally. And physically: exhaustion rarely visits.

 

[Thomas]

Stranger things have happened than someone with ME/CFS being able to make a substantial recovery using any form of Limbic retraining. I can see how it can be successful. People can train themselves to do some crazy shit. Ever seen David Blaine hold his breath for like 20 mins?

It requires a ton of work and discipline but I know people who have seen great gains.

I'd personally prefer to find Limbic realignment in a pill or a bag that works pretty quick, but but I'm yet to find that, and I've tried a lot.

It's on my list.

Ps - I know some people probably think, well how the heck do we expect to get Ampligen approved when the government sees we can cure our ME/CFS with brain retraining? That's a more complicated answer though.

 

[Cfs2019]

Mickel therapy is a scam

I spent 10 years doing it, it cost me thousands, I'm not sure dr mickel even exists, they talk about him a lot in the therapy like he is some god but you never speak to him or meet him, it's all a bit odd and weird, my intuition tells me the therapy is not to be trusted

As for reverse therapy that was almost as bad, I seen dr eaton and he told me there was nothing wrong with me just my hypothalamus was over active then I seen Kathleen haden and she told me to see my doctor for therapy who gave me cbt yet dr eaton had told me not to do cbt, I think they just want their money, at best both therapies are pretty hit and miss and that's being polite