this is a great thread, a lot of thought provoking stuff
I love that about Catch 22, didn't remember that
and I didn't know this Chalder woman is isolating victims like that, just awful
It does seem like in England there is a whole other more systematic denial thing going on in yr medical system, it really has made me wonder over the years as I have learned from you all who live there and what they have done with ME.....its pretty scary. Not to say that it can't be awful here in US, but it doesn't seem as well orchestrated but more willy nilly here. You don't know what you will get when you go to a doctor in US, its so situational, some run every test and try many remedies and take you seriously, others could refer you right to therapy only.....crap shoot
I also have mixed feelings about therapy like CBT and MI......there are different methods of it and like I mentioned I am a fan of DAvid Burns, I think he offers some tools to help talk to other people when its complicated and ways to think about things that aren't denying our feelings but avoiding being self-destructive,; as sometimes worry or anger can only hurt us--I know that is oversimplistic but for me anyway it boils down to that
Its like I am paranoid and they ARE out to get me lol but my issue is I am sensitive and it bothers me, and I want to keep working on blowing off caring what a doctor or neighbor etc thinks if it doesn't help me move forward
but yea, the part I question with CBT and MI is that in theory, a skilled, wise practitioner would say definitely all our feelings are ok, and we want to experience full range of them, but just find ways so they don't hurt us or other people--but in practice not every counselor works that way.
like one study out of Harvard said to write down everything that makes us mad, every day, embellish it even, swear, hate etc and then rip it up, that research shows that the tactile act of emotion to writing to ripping signals to brain etc a sort of letting go. David Hanscom a neurosurgeon who had chronic pain writes a lot about this technique at his website, he tells his client to do the writing practice every day and he feels it helps over time and needs to be done indefinitely to be on safe side. He remedied a lot of his own spinal issues thru dealing with anger and other emotions. I think a lot of his ideas are helpful....however, where I part ways with him, and therapists that seem to think this way--is when they say and believe that everyone can be free of pain (or illness etc) if they just practice these methods accurately and religiously....and if it doesn't work for you--well then its on you. That part really bothers me, as I know, from personal experience, you just know in your gut, when something is really broken and its not going to get you back to the baseline of your satisfaction thru mere journaling or happy thoughts....yea that is a huge insult. Obviously people who believe that do because it worked for them--Hanscom supposedly cured his own back pain thru therapy etc but that seems very ego centered to assume that because something worked for you it will work for everyone and to think they are failing if it doesn't. That said though I do think its worth doing all that sort of inner work while one searches for other medical treatments and during taking them....because I do think the mind-body connection plays a role, the degree is quite variable of course for all of us. I guess there is nothing to lose. But I know that being mad all the time isn't helping me either. I am trying to find that edge of keeping my awareness about the injustices and allowing any anger about it but at same time trying to get more zen or whatever so I can be more clear to take care of my business and also maybe help other parts of my body by not increasing the tension of resentment. I definitely do not have it all figured out for myself.........work in progress....
I also think its like dark humor, how MI (motivational interviewing) could be used by medical people or bankers or anyone to have circular discussions with people to try to fluff them and get them out the door before they realize they left with nothing.
I am intrigued the last several years as i read about more and more illnesses, ones that are accepted as real like cancer or diabetes, about research that suggests people should do mindfulness and have improved outcomes....I can't think of an example right now but its sort of mindblowing at times, like they will say psych therapy has better outcome than medicine. I wonder if its partly because a lot of medicines really are toxic and you rob Peter to pay Paul (that has happened to me a lot over the years, and you think of how a lot of people at this forum got sick because of antibiotics or other medical treatments in the first place) so are some researchers and practitioners turned off by the toxic aspects of medicine so pushing mindfulness or CBT because its less invasive and for some people a spa away from stress of modern life does help their health---or is it driven by insurance companies not wanting to pay for medicine and procedures? I would guess its a tangled mess and that not one institution is driving it in an organized way....maybe that is niave.
Oh I will add though in regard to neuro Hanscom, caveat, he does allow that some people have spinal issue that can't be healed thru working just with neuroplasticity--he thinks those cases are rare--so he does retain the physical science part. He focuses on spinal pain and I happen to have one of the spinal exceptions he would allow that cause chronic pain without intervention of some sort (severe stenosis etc) however what I disagree with him on there is that he thinks some of his spinal patients who are in chronic pain who don't meet criteria per MRI etc of having the exceptional spinal issue that would call for more than journaling--he thinks they need to just do more inner therapy work to get out of pain---that tells me he doesn't understand how things like ME could be undiagnosed in a spinal patient and still cause awful pain in head or spine that isn't going to be cured by journaling alone. I think its a dangerous position he takes to assume he can ascertain the cause in every case of someone's pain and to assume that we are currently advanced enough scientifically to know all the causes.