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Paraprevotella: the cause of my atypical ME?

IreneF

Senior Member
Messages
1,552
Location
San Francisco
@Cheesus

Re: Natto
I like it. It took about a week for me to acquire the taste. It resembles strong cheese. But most Westerners and many Japanese find it a challenge.

It's been used as both a traditional food and an effective medicine, and it's cheap. We can often buy 3-packs for $1.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
I have attached the complete profile of my gut

I've had a look at this and will make comments based on data from the uBiome community which I am familiar with.

This represents a predominantly North American population, by no means reflecting an ideal gut because of the poor diet.

Data is also available from various European populations, Chinese, Japanese, a number of African populations eating traditional diets, including hunter-gatherers, and Amerindian hunter-gathers who have had almost no contact with westerners.

In others words we have some idea of the breadth of microbiome variations, though much more data is needed. It is still early days.

In general, the guts of westerners show far less diversity than those eating traditional diets, and within the westerner group, even greater loss of diversity is associated with various disease states.

A very broad overview of gut constituents is obtained by looking at bacterial Phyla. The most dominant is Firmicutes at 56.5% (this is often up to around 70% in other populations), then Bacteroidetes at 36.5% (proportionately lower if Firmicutes is higher), Proteobacteria at 3.31%, Actinobacteria 2.6%, then a series of minor phyla at around 1% or less. These include Verrumicrobia, Lentisphaerae, Fusobacteria, Acidobacteria, Cyanobacteria, Tenericutes. There are more with variable presence.

Not much is known about the minor phyla with a few notable exceptions but they are associated with diversity and gut health in general.

Of the major phyla, quite a lot is known about some constituents but there are plenty which are a bit of a mystery.

By far the greatest diversity comes from Firmicutes - it is an immensely complicated grouping with many members, the majority in the order Clostridia which has a bewildering complexity which is yet to be resolved. The family Lachnospiraceae is the single most dominant family in the gut - av 28.1%. This family contains many of the butyrate producers plus other metabolically important genera.

Bacteroidetes is much less complex, with far fewer members, but these few members are usually numerous. The Bacteroides from this group is the single most dominant genus at 21.8%, on average , while the family Bacteroidaceae which it belongs to is the second most dominant family at 24.41%.

Proteobacteria is also a complex grouping with 5 main subdivisions. It houses most of the serious pathogens and in general, high levels of this phylum are associated with adverse health outcomes. Nevertheless is plays an important role in the normal gut and temporary overgrowth may be important in dealing with pathogens. Some genera seem to be pioneers, making it possible for others to establish themselves (eg in the infant gut several Proteobacteria come first, then Bifidobacteria take over).

Actinobacteria are notable for containing the Bifidobacteria, but there is a second subgrouping, the Coriobacteria which are also important. In general, the presence of Bifido is associated with health but it is of great interest that one of the hunter gatherer tribes in Africa, with great diversity in the gut and free of many western disease, appear to have NO Bifido.

I wont run through the genera - there are too many. What I will say is that uBiome reports a measure of diversity for each analysis, the Simpson's diversity index, and I usually show a variable score of between the 40th and 90th percentile. Unfortunately it is not steadily increasing, but going backwards and forwards. After looking at several tests I have concluded I am stuck in a holding pattern, not improving, hence my recent decision to revisit the gut more concertedly.

That is an aside, but what I am leading to is that with this level of diversity, uBiome reports between 40 and 60 different genera in my gut.

I believe a more diverse gut would contain upwards of 100 different genera.

So in your results, 23 different genera were detected with another 10 results able to be resolved only at the family level. I see about 27 families my gut.

The other thing I noticed was the rapid drop off in abundance from a couple of dominant species. I see this in my gut too, though to a bit lesser extent.

To illustrate, on average, going from the most abundant genus to 1% prevalence includes 26 genera. In my gut, for my best result, 14 genera are included, for you the drop off occurs even more quickly - 9 genera. The middle orders of abundance seem to be depleted.

This is just to give you a bit of a comparative picture.

As I've already said, apart from the overgrowth of the two genera, the most striking thing is the collapse of the Firmicutes.
 
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alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
What do you think of trying the opposite method and starving everything out with something like SCD?

That could be worth a try provided you keep up plenty of fruit and veg (including legumes) to feed the Firmicutes. Prevotella (and I imagine Paraprevotella since they are closely related) love grains, so cutting those out could be good.

Here is an interesting post that seems very relevant to your situation. Jeff Leach went from a diet rich in plant fibres to one where they were largely absent. His intake of meat remained much the same, fat too I think.

Going from high to low plant fibre had the following effects -

Firmicutes 74.8 to 28.63%
Bacteroidetes 15.9 to 56.6%
Paraprevotella 0.4 to 7.2%

These changes were the result of drastic dietary change, but since he has an essentially normal gut, he would be able to turn this around quickly just by diet.

I can assure you that if the gut is seriously disturbed, possibly by certain key species being wiped out by antibiotics, it is not so easy to change. It keeps wanting to revert to its previous pattern.

Your gut got in a mess apparently from herbal antimicrobials so it may take more than diet to turn it around. Some key thing may be missing.

Still these results give hope. Diet plus something like xifaxin might do the trick. Diet alone might make a significant difference.

Maybe in the end FMT might be necessary.

I had ruled out FMT for myself, but the longer I have been following my gut and realising it is in a holding pattern despite high vegetable fibre diet for a long time, the more I wonder if I should reconsider.

Still now that I seem more tolerant of concentrated prebiotics, I am going to really hit it for a while and see what happens.

Some important genera have come back but some remain stubbornly absent and I suspect this is preventing true recovery.

Regarding binders like clay and charcoal, they should be ok if taken at least 2 hours away from food/supplements.

I take a dose (varying between bentonite, charcoal, zeolite, chlorella) at bedtime. Still if you know chlorella works, stick to that.
 

Cheesus

Senior Member
Messages
1,292
Location
UK
Thank you again for your very helpful response, I knew I had dysbiosis but I hadn't realised that it was to such an extent. I am quite hopeful that treating it might lead to some improvement particularly as my ME was triggered by anti-microbials.

My understanding is that Paraprevotella ferments glucose amongst other sugars, is switching to different types of carbohydrate likely to be effective if it can simply ferment glucose? What is the difference between grains and starchy vegetables to gut bacteria? Moreover Chris Kresser recommends excluding FODMAPS in treating dysbiosis - do you have any thoughts on that?

I read a recent review of the gut micro biome in ME which suggested that the gut virome may be significant in ME patients and that it seems to be much more stable over time than bacteria. I wonder if an FMT is ultimately necessary in order to treat the virome. Thank you again for your help.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
What is the difference between grains and starchy vegetables to gut bacteria?

There are two basic divisions of prebiotics from grains/vegetables - energy storage material such as starch (large polymers of glucose) and fructans (aka inulins, relatively small polymers of fructose) and structural material (cell wall), lumped together as non-starch polysaccharides (NSP).

NSPs include cellulose, hemi-cellulose, pectins, xylans (very rich in grains) and are complex polymers of several different sugars.

There is third source of prebiotics used by a select few organisms, host derived mucous, and for the sake of completeness, infants take advantage of a fourth source, breast milk.

Out of all of these, the only one that is at least partially digested by us is starch. However there is a significant proportion of it which is indigestible by us, called resistant starch. This is a major source of food for gut microbes.

There is a hierarchy of digestion. Very few organisms can deal with particles of insoluble plant material, starch globules and lumps of mucous in their crude state. Those that can are primary degraders.

Bacteroides is the absolute standout here. It can and does tackle everything. Some Firmicutes such as Ruminococcus and Roseburia, along with Bifidobacterium, tend to avoid the NSPs and mucous and concentrate on starch and fructans (some bifido can cope with mucous).

Akkermansia focuses solely on mucous.

After they break up the huge complexes into slightly smaller elements, a few more semi-primary degraders move in. Some like Prevotella make a beeline for the xylans, others prefer cellulose (eg Pseudobutyrivibrio) or pectin (eg Faecalibacterium) etc.

There are still only a relatively few organisms working at this stage.

These break down the polymers into much smaller units, and this is where the vast bulk of gut anaerobes (and the gut is almost entirely anaerobes, despite what culture-based gut tests try to tell us) get their food. They can select from a huge array of different oligosaccharides and simple sugars made available by the primary degraders.

These secondary degraders are termed sacchrolytic and constitute most of the gut flora. While there are varying preferences among them there is also a great deal of overlap.

A much smaller group are asacchrolytic (use amino acids or other sources) and the aerobes and facultative anaerobes (often potential pathogens) have the option of a respiratory metabolism much like ours, as well as fermentation of sugars.

Paraprevotella ferments glucose amongst other sugars

Well almost all anaerobes do. However I think you are probably referring to a study like this which characterises two species of Paraprevotella from faeces.

When I first began trying to understand the properties of the different gut bacteria, I used to get misled by such studies.

The tests of fermentation of various substrates (usually simple sugars) and determination of enzyme activities are all about classification, establishing phenotype, and finding ways to distinguish between organisms.

Until the relatively recent advent of DNA sequencing, this was the only way to classify. Isolated cultures with an abundance of a single simple sugar substrate, however, bear little resemblance to what goes on in the gut.

The study does tell us though that it is a sacchrolytic bacterium and it gives another important clue. Growth is stimulated by xylan. This tells me that, in situ, it is likely to behave like Prevotella and prefer xylans, which are abundant in grains.

Chris Kresser recommends excluding FODMAPS in treating dysbiosis

The developers of the FODMAPS diet and of the SCD had a very limited understanding of the gut flora (it was an era when our understanding was very distorted by culture-based tests). The GAPS diet stuff has updated the SCD a bit in this respect but there is still something fundamentally lacking I think.

Chris Kesser does have a much better understanding but I think we need to consider which form of dysbiosis might benefit from a FODMAPS diet for example.

These substances are all prebiotics, things our gut bacteria like to eat and which are essentially good for us, not things we should be avoiding (this applies also to the carbohydrate sources excluded in the SCD, with the proviso that this is also about treating caeliac disease, so exclusion of gluten and hence grain is essential).

Some people do have trouble with unpleasant symptoms from fermentation of these various carbohydrates. The idea was that it is bad bacteria causing this problem and that restricting these substances will starve them out. Well no, these things are food for most of the bacteria in the gut.

The unpleasant symptoms can arise for a variety of reasons, in the case of FODMAPS, often because the fermenting bacteria are too highly concentrated in the small intestine rather than remaining in the colon. As a temporary measure, restriction of the offending substances and concentration on other gut healing measure may be necessary. But it should be a temporary restriction.

When you asked about the SCD I did think it was worth a try. It does seem to be very helpful, particularly for people with serious gut problems, though I think it works for reasons other than it's original proponents ideas (apart from gluten restriction). In your case restriction of grains would be a good thing and supplying plenty of fruit and veg would help your Firmicutes.

You would be lacking resistant starch so it might be a good idea to experiment with sources of this after an initial period on SCD.

Your situation, though, is unique. It's all guesswork.
 
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alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
I read a recent review of the gut micro biome in ME which suggested that the gut virome may be significant in ME patients and that it seems to be much more stable over time than bacteria. I wonder if an FMT is ultimately necessary in order to treat the virome.

I haven't encountered that review. Could you give me a link?

I'm assuming that by the gut virome they are really referring to phage, the viruses that attack bacteria rather than the ones that attack us. The latter might be present in the gut but it would be the former that predominated.

Coincidentally, recently I found the first report of sequencing of the entire phage complement of an individual and a related thread appeared on PR. Here is the thread - I link the paper in a post in the thread.

I'm hoping that once we understand the phage component of the gut microbiome we can use phage therapy to treat dysbiosis.

As for treating the virome, well do we really want to do that? I need to read the paper to understand what they are really referring to.

I'm not familiar with the technical aspects of FMT but I believe treatment of the faecal sample is minimal (to preserve anaerobes), so I would imagine that transferred bacteria would be accompanied by attendant phage - but maybe I am wrong.

On a slightly separate track, American Gut offers a very expensive test which sequences everything in the gut - bacteria, archaea, eukaryotes and viruses.

I've been thinking of ordering it but decided to wait for the Australian Gut project which starts next month. Maybe they will offer something similar - if not I'll get the American test.
 
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TigerLilea

Senior Member
Messages
1,147
Location
Vancouver, British Columbia
This is really interesting-- I have a somewhat similar situation.

For me, I had mild/moderate ME/CFS symptoms. I developed an infection after a cyst rupture and took a long course of amoxicillin. After developing dysbiosis from the amoxicillin, my ME/CFS symptoms became severe.

I also had mild/moderate CFS/ME up until three months ago when I developed severe diarrhea from taking amoxicillin. After stopping the antibiotics my bowel issues cleared up, however, my CFS is much more severe than it was pre amoxicillin. I am now taking Prescript Assist (soil based probiotic), Culturelle or Align, Florastor (yeast), and Lacto/Bifido probiotics. I have been told that this could take up to four years to fix. Unfortunately, here in Canada as far as I know there is no where to get stool testing done so I'm guessing as to what probiotics to use.
 
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Cheesus

Senior Member
Messages
1,292
Location
UK
@alicec

Thank you again for these very informative replies. Yes the Paraprevotella article at the Microbiology website is exactly the paper that I waded through to try and get some clues. I had noticed that one of the Paraprevotella species was called xylanphillia but when I looked it up xylan seemed to be primarily in woody tissues and that was as far as I got. Does this mean that vegetables including starchy vegetables do not contain so much xylan?

I had decided to adopt a fairly strict diet eliminating all grains and starchy vegetables with the idea of gradually introducing the vegetables until I am on a fairly liberal paleo diet, and have just begun this.

This is paper I was referring to on the virome.

I do not have the energy to read the paper in excruciating detail, however they seem to be suggesting a hypothesis (they do not have any directly supporting evidence yet) that the gut virome may be the linchpin in dysbiosis in CFS/ME. They believe that the virome may be key in regulating the gut microbiota and thus needs to be corrected in dysbiosis. They also seem to suggest that it may be inflammation from these phages that cause intestinal permeability. The take-away message for me was essentially that bacterial dysbiosis and viral dysbiosis essentially go hand in hand, and so in treating one you would need to treat both. As I say, however, it is a hypothesis.

I just had a look at the complete profile from AGP. It seems like it could be really good, particularly for chasing down the cause of this foamy urine which may or may not prove to be related to the paraprevotella. My problem would be that I have no way to interpret it, and it is very expensive to do without knowing if it will produce useable results. For your information, when I did the British Gut Project they just sent my sample to California for analysis, so it may not be worth waiting for the Australian Gut Project. It's all just the American Gut Project.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
Does this mean that vegetables including starchy vegetables do not contain so much xylan?

I've forgotten most of this stuff - had to go back and refresh my memory about plant cell walls. Here is a handy link which will tell you more than you undoubtedly want to know about the subject but is a useful quick reference if you want to know about which sugars form the backbone of the various polysaccharides.

Xylans are hemicelluloses (I think I listed them separately in the previous post but this was wrong) so in various forms are part of all cell walls, though more so in grasses. However some plants have thick secondary walls (most notably trees, but grasses to a lesser extent). These secondary walls are very rich in xylans.

So fruit and veg do contain some xylans (I have no idea how much variability there is but someone has probably tabulated it somewhere), but grasses - ie cereals - much more.

Thanks for the link - will read the paper in detail later. That hypothesis makes a great deal of sense to me. It would be interesting to know if the faecal processing in FMT eliminates phage or not. Getting a whole new set of phage could be very important.

I had decided to adopt a fairly strict diet eliminating all grains and starchy vegetables with the idea of gradually introducing the vegetables until I am on a fairly liberal paleo diet, and have just begun this.

I have experimented a lot with diet and that is exactly what seems to suit me best. In the adding back I eventually settled on some starchy vegetables but no grains.
 

jepps

Senior Member
Messages
519
Location
Austria
@alicec

This is paper I was referring to on the virome.

Thank you for this paper, @Cheesus

I find this interesting in this paper:

It is likely that ME/CFS follows a non-classical autoimmune mechanism and it has been long described to encompass idiopathic immune dysregulation. Based upon the evidence presented in this review, a candidate for chronic stimulation of the immune system that triggers autoimmune processes may be found in the intestinal virome

and this:

The virome has been shown to be more personalized and stable than bacterial intestinal communities [129], with the profiling of viral communities in female monozygotic twins and their mothers finding limited intra-personal variation compared to high inter-personal viral variation [130]. This variability has been attributed to both the presence of individual intestinal bacteria and the rapidly evolving nature of viral populations. The longitudinal sampling of a healthy male over a period of 2.5 years revealed that 80% of viral contigs, which are contiguous reads of sequenced DNA, persisted over that period.
 
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Cheesus

Senior Member
Messages
1,292
Location
UK
I know some of you expressed an interest in being kept updated, so I thought I would come back and let you know what's going on @alicec @jepps @PDXhausted

It had taken around 5 months to get my British Gut Project results back, then it was about another month thinking about what I was doing with the results before I posted them here, so by the time they got to you guys they were about 6 months old. I did a uBiome test BEFORE taking any action on the initial BGP results to see where I was at. That uBiome test has now been returned.

Before I go into details of what the results from my uBiome test are, I should note that when I did the uBiome test I was beginning to see some green shoots of improvement from a modified methylation protocol, which I had been doing for about 1 month. I was sleeping well, my energy was increasing, my nervous system was calming down and, quite interestingly, the foamy urine had significantly dropped. I was eating the same diet at this point that I had been eating when I did the BGP test, which was simply a real food diet with grains and whatnot but no gluten or processed food.

Well, my uBiome results are incredibly surprising. At the phylum level, bacteroidetes have dropped from about 75% to around 40%. Firmicutes are up from low 20s to 37%. Verrucomicrobia went fro 0.09% to an astonishing 18%. Proteobacteria are at about 3% from 2%. And the others are a rounding error.

At the level of genus, Bacteroides has dropped from 56% to 25%. Akkemansia, which was 0.09%, has surged to second place with 18% of my gut (this is the verrucomicrobia phylum). Blautia and Faecalibacterium, which were each somewhere around 1%, now come 3rd and 4th with 9% and 8% respectively. Paraprevotella, which may or may not be the source of the foamy urine (which may or may not be the cause of my ME), was at 12.5% and is now down to 5%. Roseburia which was at 0.18% is now up to 3%.

In the new comparison tool that uBiome offers, it seems my gut is MORE diverse than 90% of the population!! I also have a 90% overlap in my gut bacteria with people who have perfect health. The rapid drop off in bacterial prevalence and collapse in my firmicutes phylum seen in the BGP test seems to have disappeared.

I have a few ideas on why this may have happened:

1. The supplements I was taking, which were clearly making me feel better, influenced the gut microbiome - either directly via the effect of those supplements on the microbes themselves or indirectly via the influence improved sleep, a healthier nervous system, improved methylation, etc. were having.

2. One or both of the tests are wrong (they use different sampling methodology).

3. A combination of the above.

What is striking to me if these results are correct is the apparent flexibility of my microbiome. I am also struck by the drop in paraprevotella and the improvement in the foamy urine. And also how that this improvement in my gut generally correlated to me feeling a lot better.

If it is the case that my protocol was doing this, it is really interesting to note that I had not changed diet or taken probiotics or prebiotics, and therefore how the impact of factors outside of the gut, and specifically in the nervous/immune/methylation system, may be influencing microbial diversity. Specifically I find interesting the possible impact of a calmer nervous system and better sleep. This could be mediated by a number of factors, such as improved immune function and altered gut PH, which I know correlate to activity in the autonomic nervous system.

My next step is to continue monitoring and gathering data so I can better see what is going on. I will also do another BGP test at the exact same time as uBiome to see to what extent those results correlate (I have seen blog posts suggesting they do not produce the same results).

My second uBiome test result (third gut test result with BGP being the first) should be returned to me in about 4 weeks. That second uBiome sample was taken after a month of taking probiotics which made me feel worse and halted my improved. I had also changed my methylation supps a bit which seemed to be less effective. I had not changed my diet at the point I took my second uBiome test. I will do my third round of uBiome testing with an added BGP test after I have seen some further clear trends in my heath.
 
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alicec

Senior Member
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1,572
Location
Australia
It had taken around 5 months to get my British Gut Project results back

I had no idea the turn around time was so long. This seems like a very good reason to use uBiome. These days turn-around seems to be about 4 weeks and my most recent test was back in less than 3 weeks.

What is striking to me if these results are correct is the apparent flexibility of my microbiome

I too have seen some dramatic changes between tests, sometimes when I have made deliberate changes to diet, but mostly for no obvious reason.

Initially I had a test every 3-4 months but because of all the variability I observed, I decided to do monthly tests for a while. I wondered in the beginning if some of the results could be correct there were such wild swings, but with time, I think the results are probably ok, there just is a lot of change.

Despite the wild swings though, with time, there does seem to be a pattern that I tend to return to.

A couple of times dietary changes seem to have caused a marked increase in Firmicutes and proportionate decrease in Bacteroidetes, but with time, despite maintaining the dietary change, the proportions have eventually reverted to the starting pattern.

Proteobacteria do seem to be inherently variable - I have gone from 4 % to 32%, a few tests later that is back to 2 %, only to rise to 15% a couple of tests later.

At the genus level, while I do seem to see the same ones over and over again with relatively small changes to proportions, there is also the sudden appearance of a huge change in a single genus. One of the most notable of these was Phascolarchtobacterium which one month was 0.6 %, next month 19%, next month 1 %. It has stayed around 1% for several months subsequently.

I can't identify any reason for this sudden overgrowth.

Mostly I have been tracking closely changes in diet, pre and probiotics. While I can see some influence, some of the gut changes do not at all correlate.

I have been intending to track major supplement changes, most notably some big changes in how I have been able to apply Freddd's protocol. If I see any pattern there I'll let you know.
 

A.B.

Senior Member
Messages
3,780
Maybe you can try VSL#3 which is the strongest probiotic on the market. The satchels contain 450 billion bacteria, and I've heard a few good things about it.

Recent research indicated that probiotics have little to no impact on microbiota composition. Fecal transplants and changing diet seems to be the only way.
 

jepps

Senior Member
Messages
519
Location
Austria
Proteobacteria do seem to be inherently variable - I have gone from 4 % to 32%, a few tests later that is back to 2 %, only to rise to 15% a couple of tests later.

32% Proteobacteria is high. I had at maximum 13%, that reduced to 2 % after half a year. Simultaneously low firmicutes increased from 48 % to 81 %. During this time inflammation was reduced to a low level.
I am curious, if methylation supps change your microbiome, I hope, you will tell us.
I do not know much about Phascolarchtobacterium, but they vary from 0,4 % to 7,9 %.

@Cheesus thank you for your interesting report. I am happy, that you are fine with the methylation supps. And it´s very interesting, that your firmicutes are increased. It is interesting, that the microbes react in such a short time.
I also had a "honeymoon"-period after taking the methylation supps. This was not the same with a girlfriend of me: she took higher dosages, was to inflamed, and had to stop. At the same time firmicutes dropped to the bottom.
Now she also tries to support them again with diet.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
32% Proteobacteria is high

Yes, I went into a panic when I saw the result. Most of the increase came from a single overgrowth of Kluyvera, one of the gamma proteobacteria (a rare but very serious pathogen).

I was doing 3 monthly tests then. Kluyvera went from a very low level (about 0.1%) to 28.21% and back to <0.1% over 3 consecutive tests.

The only thing I could correlate with this was stopping VSL3. This of course could be complete coincidence but I haven't had the courage to stop taking VSL3 since. I am working up to doing it again soon.

Phascolarctobacterium is on average around 0.9%. The most notable characteristic I can find is that it is one of the relatively rare propionate producers in the gut. It makes this from succinate produced by others - eg Bacteroides -and is entirely dependant on this cross-feeding since it is asacchrolytic.

I could find no other change that might explain the overgrowth in my gut however.

These sudden big changes are still a bit of a mystery to me.
 

jepps

Senior Member
Messages
519
Location
Austria
Yes, I went into a panic when I saw the result. Most of the increase came from a single overgrowth of Kluyvera, one of the gamma proteobacteria (a rare but very serious pathogen).

This relativates the increase. When proteobacteria are increased according to my ubiome test, they are increased all together. Until now I do not have Kluyvera, but my son has (0,004 %).

Phascolarctobacterium is on average around 0.9%. The most notable characteristic I can find is that it is one of the relatively rare propionate producers in the gut. It makes this from succinate produced by others - eg Bacteroides -and is entirely dependant on this cross-feeding since it is asacchrolytic.

Yes, these the same characteristics in my summary of microbes: produces propionate, consumes succinate. But the other propionate producer (f.ex.Paludibacter, Verrucomicrobia) did not increase according to my test, when Phascolarctobacterium was increased.

@Cheesus maybe methylation supps improved the microbiome, as these vitamins are important vitamins for the mucosal function? Maybe this is the reason for honeymoon period after giving B9 and B12.
 

Cheesus

Senior Member
Messages
1,292
Location
UK
Apologies for the slow response. I have not been very well.

@Hip
Thanks for the link regarding foamy urine. I have been tested for proteinuria more times than I can remember, but the results always show there is no protein in my urine.

This non-proteinuria foamy urine is a strange symptom that pops up on internet forums in response to herbal antimicrobials (e.g. oregano, parsley, and olive leaf extract), prescription antibiotics (especially azithromycin), immuno-suppresants (prednisone), and perhaps also probiotics. Diagnoses vary but include ME, MS, Lyme, Candida, possible Rheumatoid Arthritis, kidney disease in remission (which is where the prednisone comes in) and seemingly non-specific syndromes that lack an accurate or legitimate diagnosis.

in my case, it fluctuates relative to idiopathic liver dysfunction and is inextricably tied to the onset of my illness. I assume it is of bacterial (or at least microbial) origin, but I keep running into dead ends in my investigations, and I have obviously had very little help from the NHS.

@alicec
The BGP test took ages to even get to California. I sent it at the end of October and finally got an email in mid-Jan telling me it had arrived. Meanwhile my uBiome test got there in 10 days. I suspect it is because my BGP test had to go via Kings College and they were in no rush to send it over. It was still 3 months after that before I got my results.

That is interesting regarding the fluctuations in your gut. I am still not even 100% sure that my problems are in my gut. My ME seems to have these unique traits, and whilst I am certain I share a common end-point I am not clear that the ongoing research is applicable to me because of these strange abnormalities. If I can't pin down paraprevotella as the cause of the foamy urine then I will probably have to conclude that the problem is not a gut bacteria. I doubt it is is a yeast as I have no obvious symptoms of yeast overgrowth.

@jepps
Honestly I am not sure why my microbiome improved. Do extra B-vitamins mean better mucosal function once you're already replete in vitamins? I do not know... If I had to guess I would say it was due to a number of factors from immune function to gut PH.

I am about to retest my gut and start on low dose naltrexone, as my experience over the past few years suggests I have abnormal immune function and that is somehow related to this foamy urine. I will retest frequently to see if I can find any clear patterns or links to the gut. My hope is that increasing immune function will clear this apparent infection as I have had experiences in the past where excessive rest caused a spike and then subsequent decline and almost disappearance in this strange symptom, which was accompanied by huge and a fairly rapid improvement. Fingers crossed I can recreate that with LDN, methylation, meditation and rest.
 
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