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Pain catastrophizing: More profound stupidity

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by Woolie, Aug 12, 2015.

  1. DeGenesis

    DeGenesis Senior Member

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    Sorry for the mistake, I meant they have a higher threshold. I don't know what the method is called. The science is on your side here, don't get me wrong. mRNA of receptors associated with pain perception is higher in periods of PEM, for expanple..
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
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  2. DeGenesis

    DeGenesis Senior Member

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    Don't get me wrong, I'm not agreeing with those idiots. I'm just attacking their position from a different standpoint. Pain is by its very nature catastrophic. Telling someone not to view their pain in a catastrophic sense is like telling something that the disaster ravaging their town is no worry and that they should stay in their house and ignore it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
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  3. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    That's what I thought. :) My memory is that contrary to the false stereotypes spread by the BPS school, well-characterized PWME have been found to have higher pain thresholds and lower susceptibility to placebo effect than average. Averages, of course, are averages and individuals in both groups fall all across the spectrum. The point is that as a whole, PWME are unlikely to be complaining overmuch or imagining changes in their health one way or the other.

    If we're looking for whiners and catastrophizers, we need look no further than Wessely and his cronies who are afraid of sick people to the point of asking for police protection and other extra security because they got some nasty letters. Claiming it's safer to be in a war zone than in the UK facing angry ME patients is catastrophizing at its best.
     
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  4. DeGenesis

    DeGenesis Senior Member

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    I get my ups and downs mixed up a lot.
     
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  5. out2lunch

    out2lunch Senior Member

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    I know precisely how we can "make them walk a mile in our shoes," at least put their bodies in the same oxygen depleted state we experience with PEM.

    For those of us who've done the 2-day CPET, we have solid objective evidence that our anaerobic thresholds are disastrously low. And when we force ourselves to work above those low anaerobic thresholds -- you know, live our everyday lives -- which robs our bodies of necessary oxygen while doing that work… we crash. Hard. With lots and lots of pain.

    So… I propose that we challenge these brainiacs to do a similar test that forces them to work well beyond their anaerobic thresholds and see how well they recover. It might be more of a challenge to get their healthy bodies above and beyond their normal anaerobic thresholds, but I'm sure testing methods can be developed to reach that goal.

    Less than 10 minutes of CPET for us, I feel, is somewhat equivalent to what average folks experience when they move their household belongings: a very long and strenuous day of lifting and hauling heavy boxes, resulting in sore muscles and bone numbing fatigue.

    That's what we get from the CPET but in a far, far shorter timespan. If only they could see that.
     
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  6. Scarecrow

    Scarecrow Revolting Peasant

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    Nice one.
     
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  7. DeGenesis

    DeGenesis Senior Member

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    The phrase "pain catastrophizing" makes no sense. To not see someone else's pain as a catastrophe is to reject basic human empathy. You would have to deny that the person was in any pain at all. In which case it would just be catastrophizing, not pain catastrophizing. It doesn't make sense to put the words pain and catastrophe together, since they are synonymous. I think that's what you were saying, SOC. Maybe you understand my idea better than I do.

    I have been in severe chronic pain for years, so perhaps I understand the frustration of all of you who have have ME/CFS much more clearly now, especially after I saw my own anger at the term "pain catastrophizing".
     
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  8. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    Shouldn't be that hard to simulate our experience. ;) Put a heart rate monitor on them and tell them they have to keep their heart rate above the normal anaerobic threshold for their age (125-135 bpm) all the time. That means no sitting at a desk or standing still. Jog in place while you work or cook or whatever. No walking down the hall or around the grocery store -- jog or run the whole time.

    No resting. Keep that HR above 80% of max for even the most basic of daily activities -- dressing, showering, eating. Then we wake them up 5 times every night to simulate non-restorative sleep. They should keep that up for a mere week (like that would happen), which is nothing for a PWME who, if we lived the way they expect us to.. working and exercising instead of resting, would live above our ATs for years on end. Or until we collapsed, which many of us have.

    Wanna take any bets on how long they'd last? :p

    ETA: The more I think about it, this should be a piece of cake, if they are to be believed. This little experiment would only be simulating a fraction of living with ME. These people would be living above their AT continuously, but they won't also be dealing with OI, immune dysfunction, gut problems, or cognitive difficulties... in the beginning. :devil:
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
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  9. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    @SOC, maybe a comparison group too? Allow half to pace themselves (still having disrupted sleep and being forced over their AT but being allowed to rest when it goes over, say AT+20, and half has to keep over their AT. Crossover at half study duration.
     
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  10. DeGenesis

    DeGenesis Senior Member

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    I can only wonder what that must have sounded like when I posted that they have a lower threshold, :bang-head:

    Kicking myself right now. I never meant that. Just wanted to make that ultra clear. FWIW, I feel terrible. I mixed up my words. I spent a long time last night listening to two Solve ME/CFS webinars on PEM and higher pain threshold was talked about in detail in at least one of them, and changes in mRNA in the other.

    Anyhow I'll let you get on with your discussion.
     
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  11. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    I like it! I'm also considering adding in a forced dehydration component to simulate OI. It would be nice to give them a nasty virus for their immune systems to fight at the same time, but I guess that would be unethical. :D
     
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  12. duncan

    duncan Senior Member

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    @DeGenesis, please don't fret that. To be honest, I would argue we don't have higher thresholds, either. :)

    We have all been there - writing something we didn't intend. Yesterday, on a different Forum, I opened a new thread about a study released at the end of July. I wrote the name of the study, and its authors, and where it appeared. I even re-wrote the abstract.

    Then, I posted several concerns/questions I had about the study.

    The thing is, I had opened an identical thread - different title - 18 days earlier - and I had posted my concerns, there, too. Only, I had no recollection I had done that. No remembrance of ever seeing the abstract before, or opening a thread about it, or addressing questions concerning it. Nothing. Someone had to politely bring it to my attention.

    So on the grander scale of things - or even my minute scale - using ONE word by mistake is not only insignificant, it is something I personally would aspire to. ;)
     
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  13. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    Don't worry about it - just blame it on mushy brain! It's nothing but the complete and honest truth :cool:
     
  14. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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    . . . with lead shoes and good dehydration techniques.
     
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  15. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Hibernating

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    The problem with the current evidence that it is circular - those that report their pain as being more severe (than others with similar conditions) also have more distress and ruminating behaviour. But to assume that the rumination itself causes a feedback loop and a higher level of pain seems to be based on circular reasoning. To make that claim needs both greater breath and depth of evidence - specifically evidence that does not rely on self-reports.

    The mistake that most psychologists make is confusing questionnaire answering behaviour with the underlying phenomena. What I mean is that psychologists take the questionnaire responses as gospel, rather than realising they are just another biased way of trying to measure things.
     
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  16. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

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    Yep, nicely put, @Chrisb!
     
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  17. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

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    Hi @DeGenesis, really interested in this webinar, not heard of it before. Don't suppose you have any idea how I might find it?
     
  18. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

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    I always have to do a double-take when I read about thresholds and such... ("er, ah, that's right, high is good...")
     
  19. alkt

    alkt Senior Member

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    i have not heard of any reports of any persons with m e /c f s attacking anyone considering the way we have been treated an occasional verbal rebuttal of doctors/ consultants insistance that our pain and other symptoms are down to some fallacious or wrong way of thinking is only to be expected. or do they think any body who is not in their field of "expertise" is not qualified to say anything other than heres the cheque.
     
  20. alkt

    alkt Senior Member

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    it seems that it may be possible that our desire to forget the truly horrendous days as soon as possible .also effects our memory of events we need to keep.... the only way i have stayed sane over the years is to bury every really bad day as soon as possible.and then of course when the next bad time comes along you tell yourself you have survived worse. and it will get better.
     

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