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PACE Trial and PACE Trial Protocol

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Dolphin, May 12, 2010.

  1. Sean

    Sean Senior Member

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    :wide-eyed:o_O:wide-eyed:o_O:wide-eyed:o_O

    On the other hand, it doesn't exactly help PACE's credibility, and therefore may be to our advantage.
     
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  2. Barry53

    Barry53 Senior Member

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    In a way it might be getting better. The more barminess that becomes evident around PACE, the more absurd the whole thing will be to all when the truth is finally exposed. I think the BPS crowd are starting to sense this now.
     
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  3. trishrhymes

    trishrhymes Senior Member

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  4. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

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    If you don't understand this whole placebo, bias and blinding thing then you're going to eventually come up with bizarre treatment ideas which you falsely believe to be effective.

    The people involved in the PACE trial and their friends seem to have problems understanding these things.
     
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  5. Barry53

    Barry53 Senior Member

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    But this is PACE ... how much further can a jaw drop? :p:D
     
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  6. trishrhymes

    trishrhymes Senior Member

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    I'm sure Simon Wessely, Peter White and Michael Sharpe understand the placebo effect, bias of unblinded trials, therapist effect etc perfectly well. That's why they made the primary outcomes subjective and highly prone to influence - they had, as Wessely put it, a final destination in mind when they launched the ship that was PACE.

    I suspect they were surprised at how ineffective PACE turned out to be, despite all their efforts to influence patients and select a large proportion of non ME depressed patients. That's why, to quote Wessely again (approximately), they had to alter course midway to make sure they reached the desired destination. In order to reach the required result they had to ditch the actometers and change the recovery criteria. So they did. That is unforgivably criminally irresponsible - not ignorance, but wilful, malicious intent to prop up their own careers. They can sue me if they like.

    On the other hand, I suspect some of the psychologists who have no medical training and are lower in the status hierarchy than the big god psychiatrists, believe what they are told. Some of them strike me as being either thick or incredibly credulous.
     
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  7. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

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    Coyne is doing good work. Bought his book (though have not yet read it).
    I
     
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  8. trishrhymes

    trishrhymes Senior Member

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    I've started a new thread on the Coyne blog - I think it deserves wider readership!

    I'm still trying to lift my jaw up off the floor.
     
  9. Large Donner

    Large Donner Senior Member

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    How much more info of insider dealing does NICE need?
     
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  10. dangermouse

    dangermouse Senior Member

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    It makes you wonder. :meh:
     
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  11. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

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    You should so lucky. Some of us are needing to take the elevator down to the sub-basement.
     
    snowathlete, MEMum, Vonjones and 9 others like this.
  12. Barry53

    Barry53 Senior Member

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    Just seen this quote by Richard Feynman, and it seems so very applicable thought I'd post it here:-
    Boy did he get that right!
     
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  13. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

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    He was good on the Bongo drums too.
     
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  14. BruceInOz

    BruceInOz Senior Member

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    Being a theoretical physicist myself, Richard Feynman has always been something of a hero of mine. This quote reminded me of another of relevance to the PACE saga that I once posted here somewhere:

    But, in looking it up on wikiquote, I found a longer quote that expands somewhat on the ideas behind the "fool yourself" quote and really sums up what is wrong with PACE (note that the modern translation of "cargo cult science" would be "pseudoscience"):

    (Bolding and hyperlinks from https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman)
     
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  15. anni66

    anni66 mum to ME daughter

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    Cost the taxpayer £250,000
     
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  16. Barry53

    Barry53 Senior Member

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    [My bold]

    Everything PACE seems to avoid this principle like the plague. If Richard Feynman were still around, his observations on PACE would be interesting I think.
     
  17. BruceInOz

    BruceInOz Senior Member

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    Yes, I think the proper interpretation of his quote is that he would call it "cargo cult science", a term that Feynman coined. Interestingly, Wikipedia says the following about cargo cult science: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_science)

    Yes, that does sound like PACE and today we call it pseudoscience.
     
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  18. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member

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    Sean, CFS_for_19_years and mango like this.
  19. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member

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    Barry53, Jan, mango and 9 others like this.
  20. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member

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