Choline on the Brain? A Guide to Choline in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
http://phoenixrising.me/research-2/the-brain-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-mecfs/choline-on-the-brain-a-guide-to-choline-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-by-cort-johnson-aug-2005
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Nausea and supplements

Discussion in 'Gastrointestinal and Urinary' started by Nanni, Apr 10, 2018.

  1. Nanni

    Nanni

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    I can’t figure out which supplement is setting off my nausea. I’ve tried eliminating and adding back different stuff I take but some are multiple ingredients. I know that I feel really bad when I go off everything, which I do gradually. I probably add back too quickly. I have gastroparesis, leaky gut and I take pain medication so I’m always dealing with good plumbing. Magnesium has been really important for that but that’s hard on my gut too with cramping. I hate that. This is different from magnesium. I’m nauseous right now and I just had my goat yogurt with a side of supplements. And I take 1MD probiotic in the morning, on an empty stomach and that’s one of my suspicions, empty stomach directions. Anyone else who doesn’t do well with it. Oh and I don’t have a gallbladder Anything that I might not think of that people like us tend to take that’s hard on the gut?
     
  2. PatJ

    PatJ Forum Support Assistant

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    Lack of stomach acid can lead to nausea when taking some food or supplements. I have very low stomach acid and need to take betaine hcl (with pepsin) with any meal. Apparently if a zinc supplement causes nausea it's a good sign that a person has low stomach acid; it works that way for me.
     
    WoolPippi likes this.
  3. Nanni

    Nanni

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    Ahhhh...
    . I just got back from the gastro doctor for my gastroparesis and all he did was order a colonoscopy, Metamucil, small bites and low fat diet. He didn’t want to hear about the fact that I do everything he advised except metamucil and I’m constantly nauseous. Nor much concern about a polyp they found in my esophagus 5 years ago and I never even knew about it. He was like, well you’re probably fine. It’s already been 5 years...... and I chimed in, and what, I’m not dead so it’s probably fine. I at least got him to refer me to a specific ear, nose, and throat person.

    Could i ask the brand of betaine you take. I remember trying it a long time ago and didn’t have a good result but I don’t remember pepsin and my health is better. Does leaky gut have to be dealt with first? I definitely get nauseous from zinc. Im guessing that I haven’t done enough to specifically address the no gallbladder/gastroparesis problem. I take ox bile occasionally but maybe I need to take it regularly.
     
  4. PatJ

    PatJ Forum Support Assistant

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    For several years I've used Vitacost brand betaine HCL with pepsin (650mg) and I've recently been using Swanson brand betaine HCL with pepsin (325mg).

    I use the lower dose with meals that only contain a little protein. I need 5-6 of the larger dose with meals that contains more protein or protein with liquids (since the liquids dilute the betaine hcl).

    When I first suspected I had low stomach acid I tried a full dose betaine hcl capsule and felt discomfort in my stomach. I cut back to the smaller dose which was better. I read later that a person's stomach lining will become thinner due to lack of stomach acid so that why I felt discomfort. Some people mistake this feeling as an indicator that they have too much stomach acid, when really they don't have enough.

    When I added supplemental acid my stomach needed some adjustment time to thicken my stomach lining. Within a few weeks I was able to keep increasing my dose of betaine HCL until I no longer felt exhausted or like I had a rock in my stomach after eating a meal with protein.

    I have so little stomach acid that I can drink 1/4 - 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda in water and not burp. Someone with stomach acid should burp because the baking soda neutralizes their stomach acid and causes gas.

    One cause of gastroparesis is lack of stomach acid. Presence of stomach acid is one of the signals your body relies on to know that your stomach is ready to pass the food out of your stomach.

    Low stomach acid is common in ME/CFS patients.
     
    Sundancer likes this.
  5. Nanni

    Nanni

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    I’m so grateful for your post. I have not been doing well at all. I had heard about the baking soda test but you know how it goes...got lost in the fog. Amazing how much I’m side tracked by brain blipping. I just did the test, took a 1/2 teaspoon before I finally burped. I’m going to get some hcl right away. I have the same feelings like too much acid and the rock in my stomach. I’ve started taking ox bile now if i eat high protein and that seems to help a little. I’ve been trying everything from glutamine to ginger and still so sick. Thanks PatJ
     
    PatJ likes this.
  6. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    how are you now? Stomach acid is so important.

    HCL pills are wonderful. Other things that acidify your stomach are strong lemon juice and diluted vinegar, taken with your food. These are the three things that will take away the cause from nausea after eating.

    The other two remedies, mint and ginger, do not work at the cause but numb the signals of nausea. Also good of course.

    You get nausea from fat and protein, because the stomach is not acid enough to break them down.

    Fat needs bile to be broken apart, to "soap it up". So ox bile pills with your fat is excellent. Bile is your body's major route of waste disposing so important to have. Fat is needed by your lymfe system and all cells for functioning. Do no stop eating fat, especially not animal fat.
    Digestive enzymes are also a true help against nausea from fats. Lipase in a pill.

    Protein needs digestive enzymes to break them up. Help your pancreas and take a pill. Protease etc. Do not stop eating proteins.

    Aim to eat full spectrum amino acids (these are egg yoke, organ meat, stock/broth or body builder proteins) but take small portions.
    Fry one egg yoke in coconut fat, add salt and pepper and take it with HCL, half an ox bile pill and some digestive enzymes. Drink lemon juice or take extra HCL pill if you get nauseous.

    Your stomach will need one hour to process the food. After that it will try to give it to the small intestine where take up occurs. The small intestine will only accept the food if it's acid enough. If not it will shut down the stomach sphincter or even send it back into it (reverse motility). Very nauseating.

    The gallbladder or the liver (in your case) will only release bile if the food out of the stomach is acid enough. The liver can only make small portions at a time. But if the food is not acid enough it will not get the demand to produce at all.

    Lastly: guess what determines the stomach acidity?
    It's cortisol levels. The long term anti-stress hormone made by your adrenals. The one that's totally out of wack in persons with ME. Tsss:rolleyes:
     
    Heartl, rosa and PatJ like this.
  7. Nanni

    Nanni

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    Great information. I especially appreciate it since I just had one of my worst crashes in years. I’ve been slowly cutting back on supplements to get a better idea of what is helping or hurting. I’m feeling awful but that’s a good sign that something’s have been helping. Boy I forgot how much fatigue can hurt. I’ve been in bed a lot and brain broke so just ordered the HCL by Best with Gentian bitters. Thank you for the reminder.

    I didn’t know about the adrenals. I just started taking my adrenal support supplement again and I am seeing a big difference with all my symptoms. I’ve been staying away from a lot of protein because of the nausea. Becomes a vicious cycle. I’m looking forward to trying eggs again.

    Anyone have an opinion on the organic bone broth you can buy in aseptic containers. I know fresh would be superior but it’s supposed to be so good for you. I know my gut is key to how much better I am or worse at times. I’ll keep you posted.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2018
  8. PatJ

    PatJ Forum Support Assistant

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    Bitters work best when taken 20-30 minutes before a meal so they can help to induce stomach acid secretion (if your stomach is capable). Betaine HCL should be taken at the start of a meal so it can get to work quickly breaking down the protein. A combination product might not work as well.

    I've tried bitters but found that they're more difficult for me to use compared to betaine HCL with pepsin. The bitters tend to induce too much or too little acid secretion. With betaine it's usually easy for me to know just how much to take.
     
  9. Nanni

    Nanni

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    I think you’re right. I had already ordered the combo supplement of hcl and bitters. Even if i take a third of the 650 mg. Capsule i get an initial pain or cramp in my gut. However I can tell it’s helpful when the pain subsides.Think I’ll try some vinegar. I’m wondering about what effect gastroparesis might have on the whole picture. I have that as well as a very mysterious endocrine problems.
     
  10. PatJ

    PatJ Forum Support Assistant

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    If you've had low stomach acid for a long time then your stomach lining may have thinned. It might take a few weeks for it to build back up. I was able to gradually increase my HCL amount over roughly a month. I assume that's because my stomach lining was thickening in response to the HCL I was taking.
     
  11. Nanni

    Nanni

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    I think mine is super thin. Is there a way to help restore it while slowly introducing stomach acid. Is a little lemon juice better than hcl for now. I’m very reactive right now. I’m afraid to take anything. I’m having a horrible bout of stomach pain lately, in part I learned it’s due to taking estrogen and also carbonated beverages are a killer. But really anything I put in my stomach. Memorial Day with the family kinda did me in.
     
  12. PatJ

    PatJ Forum Support Assistant

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    It depends on how you react. Apple Cider Vingear is another option.

    Here is some info about l-glutamine:
     
  13. Nanni

    Nanni

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    I thought I’d pass on what i have learned. The biggest problem with my gut is the supposedly, sublingual estrogen/progesterone troches I’ve been on for a few months. They’re not sublingual. it’s been murder on my stomach. I stopped taking it and major improvement. I’m also not reacting well to my thyroid medication. Feels like I’m on too much now. I’m thinking it’s the testosterone I’m now taking although no warning about it from my doctor. The lemon juice suggested has been very helpful and works best for now. Am also frustrated with glutamine. I’m getting a lot of help with my gut and the aloe vera in it. But I’m experiencing the excitatory part. I’m trying to figure out about ammonia buildup. I’m stumped. I have such a hard time processing the information here. It’s great but so much to understand. I’m really distracted by the discomfort and anxiety. How do you all do it. And I used to be a writer and I have a masters degree. I’m so frustrated. I really can’t get a handle on what I’m doing besides putting out fires.
     
  14. kangaSue

    kangaSue Senior Member

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    @Nanni Even the brightest doctors can't fathom the intricacies of what makes our gastric motility system work. Any idea why you have gastroparesis in the first place, enterovirus, diabetic or still just idiopathic at this point?

    I've had a severe case of idiopathic gastroparesis for close on 20 years now that's looking to be a microvascular bowel blood flow issue and tied in with autonomic dysfunction and the worst of thing seemed to kick off with hormonal issues around my monthly cycle and one of the first things that showed up out of the ordinary was Pelvic Congestion Syndrome in having a grossly dilated left ovarian vein.

    Any connections to PCS for yourself?
     
  15. Nanni

    Nanni

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    @kangaSue I just found this response from you. Sorry about that. Thank you for the information about your experience. I used to have bad pain in my right overy for years after menopause which I was told is in my head but that pain disappeared after taking hormones. When I was diagnosed with gastroparesis two things happened at the same time. I had just lost a lot of weight very quickly. I absolutely abhor taking pain medication. I decided to try methadone thinking it’s better and it will still treat my pain which it did. Unfortunately I was also made meincredibly nauseous and I could hardly eat. I had to go off it but my stomach was never the same. I also had to get my gallbladder removed because it was full of stones from improper thyroid medication dosaging. It’s been suggested that either/and the surgery or the weight loss damaged my vagus nerve. Of course they say it’s the pain medication but had already been on that for years. Right now I’m recovering from my hormones messing with my gut. It’s frustrating. Not a good day today.
     
  16. kangaSue

    kangaSue Senior Member

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    @Nanni I'm sure we're all guilty of missing the occasional post so no problems on that score.

    There's a number of different ways things can pan out for you here. I have heard it said way too often that whipping out the gallbladder has lead to a worsening of things. Having both gastroparesis and gallbladder dysfunction does raise the possibility of it all being related to autonomic dysfunction and that can result in having gallstones because of a low ejection fraction too as opposed to improper thyroid medication dosaging. It sounds to me like it needs to be ruled out that Autonomic Neuropathy isn't a factor here too as another cause of vagus nerve dysfunction.

    That said, there are a number of Post-cholecystectomy syndromes that could be the issue, mesenteric ischemia being onne of the possibilities and which can be a microvascular intestinal blood flow deficiency that I mentioned above.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3473449/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3016113/

    Median Arcuate Ligament Syndrome is something that can involve all these factors. I know a large number of people who found they had MALS only after things were worse from having their gallbladder removed when the suspicion was that it was only the gallbladder causing the GI symptoms in the first place.

    A Doppler Ultrasound of the mesentery arteries would be on my "to do" list with your symptoms, as a screen for MALS but also for a number of other abdominal vascular abnormalities that can potentially be part of the mix (and some of which can mess with your hormones too).
     
  17. Nanni

    Nanni

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    Thanks for the great information. I’m definitely going to follow up. I know I to get the hormones figured out. So frustrating that I did improve for awhile from the replacement hormones. Now I’m back to ridiculous amount of getting hot, sweating then shivering cold, and then nausea...like that all day just from any exertion, even talking. Had this phenomenon before going on the hormones. But the stomach upset is worse. I so appreciate having some direction since I’m not getting any from the medical community.
     
    kangaSue likes this.

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