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Minor thing. Anthony Cleare testifying on the role stress plays in causing CFS...

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
Minor thing. Anthony Cleare testifying on the role stress plays in causing CFS...

In this context, the patient is trying to gain compensation for the role the say work related stress had upon their condition.

This was from a court case I stumbled upon, and thought I'd post here, in case anyone else is interested.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2012/346.html

I pulled out most of the Cleare bits, in case anyone is interested.

edit:

I'm not able to find a copy of Clear and Wessely's paper 'Chronic fatigue syndrome: a stress disorder?', but in one of Cleare's later papers, he summarises it thus:

4) Cleare and Wessely (125 ). These authors have hypothesized that there may in fact be a picture of chronic stress present in CFS, whether due to external or internal factors, that might explain the findings.
http://edrv.endojournals.org/content/24/2/236.full

Here are the bits from the recent court case:

In respect of triggers for the condition (as opposed to predisposing factors), a number were noted in paragraph 3.3.2 of the report. Of particular importance to this case are the following two:

"Infections: Good-quality evidence indicates that certain infections are more common triggers for [CFS] than others. Glandular fever, viral meningitis and viral hepatitis are followed by [CFS] in about 10% of cases of the primary infection. [CFS] can follow infections with herpes viruses. Influenza and 'flu-like infections can trigger [CFS], but common upper respiratory tract infections do not seem to.

Life events: The evidence that life events can trigger [CFS] is weak. Severe life events are much more likely to provoke a mood disorder, which can be misdiagnosed as [CFS]. However, clinical and patient experience suggests that increased 'stress' may be common around the onset of symptoms or a triggering event, such as infection. It is unclear whether this is as a triggering, a predisposing or a maintaining factor. Stress is also recognised as a trigger for setbacks."

In short, the report concluded that there was good evidence indicating that certain infections (including chickenpox, a herpes virus) may trigger CFS. Evidence that life events may do so was considered weak; but there appeared to be at least a temporal association between the onset of CFS and increased stress. Otherwise, the relationship between stress and the condition was regarded as unclear.
In addition to that authoritative paper, I was referred by Dr Weir to four academic papers, in which the authors seek to add to the knowledge of the relationship between life events and CFS. The paper most heavily considered was S Hatcher and A House, "Life events, difficulties and dilemmas in the onset of chronic fatigue syndrome: a case control study", Psychological Medicine, 2003, 33, 1185-92. It considered 64 CFS patients. In relation to marked difficulties with life events (as opposed to a severe event, such as the loss of a loved one) in the three months before onset, there was a statistical difference between the patient group (more) and the controls (less). However, (i) a number of the controls refused to take part, and the controls were questioned by way of a questionnaire rather than interview, introducing an obvious source of bias; (ii) particularly in relation to marked difficulties patients identified in the three months before onset, there was considerable risk of association bias; (iii) in relation to marked difficulties in the year before onset, there was no statistically significant difference between patients and controls; and (iv) the numbers involved were so small that this study has no great statistical potency. The results do not appear to have been replicated.

Of the other two papers, one (I E Salit, "Precipitating Factors for the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome", J Psychiatr Res, 1997, 31(1), 59-65)) concerned 134 CFS patients. In 72% of them, CFS started with an apparently infectious disease. In 85%, stressful events appeared common in the year before onset, compared with only 6% of the controls. However, it predates the Working Party Report, and was presumably taken into account in it; and it is in any event statistically weak. The conclusion is no stronger than it is likely that CFS is multifactorial in origin; acute events (including infections) may trigger CFS; and patients in which it does may be "quite vulnerable, based on the occurrence of many stressful events". Webster Marketon et al, "Stress hormones and immune function", Cellular Immunology, 252 (2008) 16-26, reviewed data relating to the effects of stress on the immune system, in particular in relation to delayed wound healing, impaired responses to vaccination and the development and progression of cancer. That paper appears to be of little assistance in respect of the issues before me. The final paper (E Sundbom et al, "Possible influence of defences and negative life events on patients with chronic fatigue syndrome: a pilot study", Psychological Reports, 2002, 91, 963-978) was not referred to at the trial, and readily concedes its own statistical limitations.

Dr Weir accepted the conclusions of the Working Party report, and accepted that there are insufficient data to confirm a hypothesis that stress and CFS have a causal relationship; he said he believed there was such a link because of his clinical experience. Prof Cleare (who was a member of the Key Group of the Working Party) said that, in his view, none of these studies and indeed none of the collected academic and clinical experience and wisdom since 2002 undermines or significantly changes the views and conclusions of the Working Party report with regard to trigger. I agree: there is no evidence before me which significantly changes the position with regard to trigger as set out in that report.

whereas Prof Cleare considers CBT to be useful therapy in curing CFS itself and has pioneered its use in that regard at King's College Hospital, London.

Prof Cleare does not. He said that the relationship between stress, a reduced immune system and CFS is unclear, as identified by the Working Party report in 2002. There is no cogent evidence to support the contention that stress triggers CFS. On the balance of probabilities, he considers that (i) chickenpox is a highly infectious disease, which Mrs MacLennan would have contracted in the circumstances in which she did in fact contract it, in any event: (ii) Mrs MacLennan's CFS was caused by her preceding chickenpox: and (iii) she would have contracted both chickenpox and CFS in any event, and there is no casual connection between her work and either condition. He accepted that Mrs MacLennan has had some symptoms of anxiety, distinct from her CFS, that are probably attributable to her work; but her claim relies upon the proposition that her CFS is caused by her work.

Given the current state of medical knowledge and opinion, this argument on causation is bold. It appears uncontroversial (and, insofar as it is, I accept Prof Cleare's evidence) that there is no proven causal link between stress or a deficient immune response on the one hand, and CFS on the other. These are difficult and developing areas of medical science.

Prof Cleare did not consider that stress at work was involved in Mrs MacLennan's CFS, for the reasons set out above (see particularly paragraph 42 above).
 

Yogi

Senior Member
Messages
1,132
Psychological Stress in CFS

On the one hand Cleare and other psychiatrists claim ME/CFS (Neurological) is psychological in contravention of the WHO ICD. Many patients and honest doctors have always claimed viruses and infections cause the symptoms in ME/CFS. However Cleare and other psychiatrists claim there is no role for viral infections in CFS as shown by NICE Guidelines Judicial Review and the XMRV debate over the past few years amongst other recent battles between both sides. Cleare and others claim CFS and its symptoms are psychological.

How can Cleare and other psychiatrists therefore claim with any shred of credibility in a Court of Law that psychological stress does not cause CFS?????

Any comments?
 
Messages
180
On the one hand Cleare and other psychiatrists claim ME/CFS (Neurological) is psychological in contravention of the WHO ICD. Many patients and honest doctors have always claimed viruses and infections cause the symptoms in ME/CFS. However Cleare and other psychiatrists claim there is no role for viral infections in CFS as shown by NICE Guidelines Judicial Review and the XMRV debate over the past few years amongst other recent battles between both sides. Cleare and others claim CFS and its symptoms are psychological.

There is a difference between viruses/infections causing CFS and viruses/infections triggering CFS. There is good evidence to show that for a large proportion of patients a viral or infectious episode preceded the onset of their illness, but there is little or no evidence to suggest that the ongoing cause of the illness is due to a virus (except perhaps Dr Chia's enterovirus findings but this link is yet to be firmly established). So in that sense they are accurate, but I'm highly dubious about their other claims, such as that they accept there is no evidence that stress plays a key role. In fact I've been told by a NICE medical practitioner that the stress induced by my physical activities in the time before I got ill was the key factor in the development of my illness.
 

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
In fact I've been told by a NICE medical practitioner that the stress induced by my physical activities in the time before I got ill was the key factor in the development of my illness.

Yeah - but I expect that this is a pragmatically developed narrative, rather than something that there's good evidence is actually true.

Given the difficulty of defining 'stress' and the difficulty of defining 'CFS', it seems like just about any claim made about them and their associations could be made. With the weakness of the evidence in this area, I'd be wary of anyone making any particular truth claim - but it does interest me how and why different narratives are constructed, and who they tend to benefit. I bet that the NHS would not accept that model of CFS if you were making a claim for compensation over the harm caused by doctors misleadingly reassuring you, and encouraging you to push through your fatigue with physical exercise in order to overcome deconditioning and an fear of exercise.
 

Enid

Senior Member
Messages
3,309
Location
UK
Uhum - any chance of looking at "internal" stress like simple infections - might help them along (with all their difficulties). I mean do we have to worry about them with all their mind body theorising when science and real medicine is uncovering the pathologies/causes of so many illnesses.

Best way for psychological stress is from their mumbo jumbo.
 

Yogi

Senior Member
Messages
1,132
MEDICOLEGAL PSYCHIATRY LIMITED

Anthony Cleare seems to be doing a lot of medicolegal work for insurance companies.

His research at King's College cannot be seen to be free of conflicts of interest given the amount he depends on medicolegal work.

http://companycheck.co.uk/company/07093700

Total Current Assets : 137,257 and the company was only set up in 2009.
 

Yogi

Senior Member
Messages
1,132
Thanks Esther. He should be declaring this in his research. If anyone is interested they can investigate this further by looking whether he has disclosed it or not.