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Interpreting HLA-DR test results

leela

Senior Member
Messages
3,290
@Gingergirl, I know there are at least two patients with ME and biotoxin illness who go to Dr. Hope.
She might be good resource in your current circumstance. I find with most medical practices, it's me who has to call back repeatedly rather than waiting for them to call me.

I suspect that since the "Moldy" movie just came out, it might have inundated their office with new patient calls.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@Gingergirl, I know there are at least two patients with ME and biotoxin illness who go to Dr. Hope.
She might be good resource in your current circumstance. I find with most medical practices, it's me who has to call back repeatedly rather than waiting for them to call me.

I suspect that since the "Moldy" movie just came out, it might have inundated their office with new patient calls.

@leela What are your two friend's experiences with Dr. Hope (only if you are allowed to disclose or can tell me by PM) and once they are established patients, does she return their phone calls?

I believe she would be a great resource for my current situation and she was recommended highly to me by multiple sources from our mold resotration company to my former ND. I have not heard anything negative about her, I just cannot reach her! My husband left her a msg last Fri and then I left her a msg on Mon and it's now Thurs. All I want to know is if she is accepting new patients and that we will travel to her for first appt and pay any fees.

Part of our legal case requires a mold doctor to examine me, offer feedback and treatment, etc, and even if you discard the legal part, I just want to start medical treatment but not go rogue and want to do it under professional guidance. I will see an MCAS specialist in seven days and had hoped to see her shortly after but do not know if this is delusional or realistic?

I know she must be inundated with calls after being featured in the movie "Moldy" and am hoping she can let us know how long her waiting list is or even refer me to a colleague except there is literally no one else in So. CA that I can find on any list. I feel for her and she must be swamped with work and just need her guidance or someone that can help me with this!
 

leela

Senior Member
Messages
3,290
@Gingergrrl do you have an email address for dr hope?
there is another well-known mold specialist in my state whose office rarely calls back either, but does respond to an email--well, two emails in a row ;) I was eventually able to reach them by phone through persisting. Don't politely wait for days, (I do that too) be the squeaky wheel, or at least keep that finger dialing till you get a human.

I will ask your questions to the patients who have seen her.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@Gingergrrl do you have an email address for dr hope?
there is another well-known mold specialist in my state whose office rarely calls back either, but does respond to an email--well, two emails in a row ;) I was eventually able to reach them by phone through persisting. Don't politely wait for days, (I do that too) be the squeaky wheel, or at least keep that finger dialing till you get a human.

I will ask your questions to the patients who have seen her.

@leela I left another msg today (over the course of two wks so one from my husband and two from me). I do not have an email address but if you can get me one from the two people you know that would be awesome! Thank you so much!
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@leela my ND's office reached her and her scheduler is on vacation so she is alone and sounds pretty booked but will get back to me and call if there is a cancellation (hopefully in advance since she is two hrs north of us and we are in the process of moving early next week.)

But at least they reached her and I am now on her radar LOL. I have no complaints and look forward to hopefully getting started with her sometime soon!
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
An interesting footnote to this discussion: I am watching a Public TV show on archaic peoples. They have found that Asians, European, and Americans carry 1 -3 % DNA from Neanderthals and another archaic people, Denisovans. But, if I heard correctly, HLA genes were 90% from these archaic peoples.
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
This is looking like a test which nearly everyone should fail.

if someone has gene(s) in this family, doesn't that just indicate potential vs fact? i.e. the gene(s) may never be expressed. I think you indirectly addressed this w the comment re p-value...
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
if someone has gene(s) in this family, doesn't that just indicate potential vs fact? i.e. the gene(s) may never be expressed. I think you indirectly addressed this w the comment re p-value...
Shoemaker is claiming a correlation based on the gene, not its expression. But the basis for that correlation is an inappropriate comparison between one or two ethnic groups versus the rest of the world. Hence no correlation between HLA type and response to infections or toxins has been demonstrated which would support Shoemaker's clams.

Expression would be a completely different issue, and would require testing RNA or actual HLA levels in the body. It might turn out to be relevant, but it is not at all relevant to Shoemaker's claims about the frequency of HLA types in patients mold/Lyme/etc.
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
@Valentijn what about any of the other shoemaker tests? MMP9, C3a, C4a etc.. are any of them relevant for evaluating mold or biotoxin sensitivity? I have one week before my insurance runs out, so I can get some tests... Had to cancel my Dr Kaufman appt because he only takes cash for ofc visit

thx
 

Eeyore

Senior Member
Messages
595
I've read some of Shoemaker's work, and I think some of the science may be junky, but I also think he's stumbled onto some potentially interesting clinical markers. MMP9, C3a, C4a, TGF-beta, etc. have been found by a lot of patients to be markedly abnormal. I don't think he's shown a causal link to mold or to the HLA haplotypes, but the (sometimes dramatically) elevated levels of C4a are well documented now in Lyme Disease and somewhat documented in ME.

In @Gingergrrl 's case, she seems to have actual evidence of stachybotrys. There really isn't much, if any, doubt that this causes serious health problems. In her case, I think mold is probably part of her illness. I'm not sure if the HLA typing matters at all - although it's not inconceivable - but I'm much more persuaded by her combination of symptoms and her positive home testing for stachybotrys. I'm not sure how one diagnoses stachybotrys mediated illness within conventional medicine, but I don't think it's really debatable that it causes health problems.

I think the biomarkers that he's finding elevated/abnormal may actually have a different interpretation, and may be involved in a final common pathway that affects many ME, chronic Lyme, fibro, and other patients on these forums. I've never met him, but everything I read suggests Shoemaker is an arrogant ass in how he treats his patients, and that may have been a big part of his undoing (he lost his medical license for prescribing procrit to ME patients, among other things, although I don't think there actually was an adverse event). I think he pissed off a few too many patients by treating them like crap. I don't care who you are as a doctor or what you know, or what patient you have - treating all patients with basic respect is imperative. The same goes in reverse - doctors should also be treated respect. It's basic humanity. That is not to say one must bow down and defer or never challenge, but it can be done respectfully and scientifically, and one should have an open mind - if they offer a good argument, acknowledge it, and if you can't refute it, realize you have to be able to do so if you are to dismiss it. The same should work in reverse too though. Anyways - I think Shoemaker's arrogance and his attitudes towards his patients were what led to his downfall, but I am not certain his findings are completely devoid of merit. I think parts may be useful.

I happen to know my HLA types (from a full HLA panel/sequencing), and I don't have the 11-3 haplotype.

Dr. Edwards is a scientist who has high medical and scientific standards - which is a good thing. He's skeptical, in a healthy way, as well, and his posts have often made me question assumptions I was making that may not have been justified. This kind of criticism is good. No one is dismissing all the conclusions of Dr. Shoemaker - only saying that it's not ironclad by any means, and we need high quality, replicated science before we pile on and assume he's got the rosetta stone.

One thing I got from Shoemaker's work that I consider valuable, and has made it worth reading, is that there is complement activation in my illness. Maybe that's pure luck on his part - and I'm open on this - but in that sense he did help me. I'm one step closer to putting the puzzle together.

I think we also need to look at the role of C3a, C4a, and C5a, which are anapylotoxins, and activate mast cells. Many symptoms in ME correlate with mastocytosis, yet I have read exceedingly few people reporting a clonal V617F myeloproliferative disease. These anaphylotoxins very possibly could help explain MCS and the extreme sensitivity patients report to drugs, foods, and just about everything. It's important to remember though that this is still theory - most of what I say is just theory! - and it all needs to be experimentally confirmed.

Either way, @Gingergrrl is suffering, and it seems very likely mold is involved in her case based on the environmental testing she had done. Whether or not Shoemaker's HLA types matter is not clear - but what is clear is that he helped her figure out what was wrong - so for her, it may prove very beneficial.

Lastly, I'm very sorry to hear you're going through all this. I hope that a change of venue will help you to feel better. Maybe it will be a miracle cure for you - we all hope that.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
In @Gingergrrl 's case, she seems to have actual evidence of stachybotrys. There really isn't much, if any, doubt that this causes serious health problems. In her case, I think mold is probably part of her illness. I'm not sure if the HLA typing matters at all - although it's not inconceivable - but I'm much more persuaded by her combination of symptoms and her positive home testing for stachybotrys. I'm not sure how one diagnoses stachybotrys mediated illness within conventional medicine, but I don't think it's really debatable that it causes health problems.

@Eeyore yes we have rock solid evidence of 18-19 kinds of mycotoxins from mold in our A/C system and stacybotris should have been no higher than 0.1 ppb and our final test (after remediation) was 8.13 ppb. We had to move and lost all of our belongings down to our wedding album, over 200-300K worth of everything we owned- furniture, art, clothing, computers, sentimental items, etc. It was a huge loss that we are still processing every day.

I saw a top mold specialist and my TGF-B1 test, which top of the range is approx 2300, was 9400. I have not a shred of doubt that mold played a huge role in my case b/c I breathed it in for 2-3 years on a daily basis and my breathing and lung functioning were so severely affected. I had other triggers as well but had we not rented that unit, I do not believe I would ever have become this ill. I have never seen Shoemaker and have no investment or bias toward or against him, but only found it interesting that I had the worst haplotype which cannot detox mold and am sure this played a role.

I also feel that mold was the final trigger in why I developed MCAS (at all) but to such a severe level that I ended up in hospital unable to eat or ingest any food without anaphylaxis. I believe my immune system could no longer fight the mold and went haywire. We are in the process of dealing with the gross negligence by our prior landlord (which I cannot discuss here) but regardless of how that plays out, I am finally in a mold free living space and my MCAS is much improved. My severe dysautonomia and breathing issues are still quite bad but I am seeking out multiple experts until I find someone to help me on that front.

And re: what you said Stachy causes severe illness including sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) and is not debatable even in conventional medicine how dangerous it is. Thanks for validating that for others even though I already knew! If I can prevent anyone else going through what me and my family did, it will bring me some comfort.
 

Eeyore

Senior Member
Messages
595
@Gingergrrl - I never heard about any connection to SIDS - that's interesting, but I agree with you there is now scientific consensus that stachybotrys causes severe health issues for some people, if not all (given sufficient exposure). Also there is no doubt that you were exposed, as you have objectively documented it. I think Dr. Edwards made a really good point that it may be better in some cases to test houses than people if we want to find mold illness. If you cannot find mold, then it's hard to argue there is mold exposure and resulting illness - when you looked for mold, you found it - and not just any mold, but the one we know is the most dangerous. I think all ME patients are born genetically susceptible, and once triggered, we're ill.

I'm open minded on the HLA testing, but unconvinced. I think the TGF-beta is more likely to be abnormal in ME patients (it makes a lot of mechanistic sense to me) - although I don't think it's always mold. Both require more study, but your results look abnormal. I think Shoemaker oversimplifies and calls almost everything a mold/biotoxin illness. I'm not convinced this is the case. I think your case is unusually clearcut, and it's pretty unlikely that mold is not involved in your case. I think mostly there is a genetic predisposition and many potential triggers, and mold may be one of them (or you may just have a mold sickness unrelated to ME, I don't really know). Probably mold somehow triggered ME in you. I do think some of Shoemaker's stuff makes sense, I'm just not sure all the links he believes are really proven - which doesn't mean they're wrong. I know he's not your personal doc, but he's sort of the founding father of the mold/biotoxin school of thought. I've heard horrible things about him as a person in terms of how he relates to patients. He doesn't dismiss their symptoms, he is just arrogant, condescending, and rude. This is not first hand information - I've never met the man or any mold/biotoxin doctor.

I'm glad you found some answers and are feeling better. I'm sorry for everything you've had to go through and that you lost all your belongings and took such a financial hit. It does sound like you're getting past it though, and rebuilding a life, so that's all good news.

Did you do any of the other Shoemaker tests and which if any were normal/abnormal? e.g. TGF-beta, HLA-DR/DQ, MSH, C4a, C3a, MMP9, VEGF, etc.

I haven't tried to test them all, but I do know my HLA type (it's not 11-3-whatever). My VEGF is right on the normal/low border. C4a is pretty elevated. The rest I haven't tested. I tested them for other reasons, not for mold.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@Eeyore Am back but really tired so hopefully this all makes sense!

I never heard about any connection to SIDS - that's interesting, but I agree with you there is now scientific consensus that stachybotrys causes severe health issues for some people, if not all (given sufficient exposure).

There were multiple cases and lawsuits of babies dying from their lungs bleeding from stachybotrys and it is linked to SIDS but I don't have any citations at the moment.

Also there is no doubt that you were exposed, as you have objectively documented it.

We have it documented from the testing done by our landlord plus our own additional testing. It was airborn and on all of our household goods and electronics (plus 18-19 other molds and mycotoxins.) The levels that I quoted in previous e-mails that were found on our belongings were for tricothecenes (the mycotoxin from Stachy) and our attorney felt our testing was rock solid.

I think Dr. Edwards made a really good point that it may be better in some cases to test houses than people if we want to find mold illness. If you cannot find mold, then it's hard to argue there is mold exposure and resulting illness - when you looked for mold, you found it - and not just any mold, but the one we know is the most dangerous. I think all ME patients are born genetically susceptible, and once triggered, we're ill.

I haven't gone back and re-read this thread beyond your posts but I agree it makes sense to have the home testing match. The people who the most ill and cannot detox mold (like me) are often negative on tests like real-time labs b/c it is staying in the body and you are not peeing it out. I was too ill to start binders b/c of my severe MCAS but this is still my plan for the future.

I think the TGF-beta is more likely to be abnormal in ME patients (it makes a lot of mechanistic sense to me) - although I don't think it's always mold.

I agree and my mold doc said it is a marker for inflammation that she finds very high in all her mold patients but it is not a marker for mold per se and she disagrees with a lot of Shoemaker's stuff. In my case she suspects it is directly related to mold and I agree.

I think your case is unusually clearcut, and it's pretty unlikely that mold is not involved in your case. I think mostly there is a genetic predisposition and many potential triggers, and mold may be one of them (or you may just have a mold sickness unrelated to ME, I don't really know).

It is so hard to say but all I know is that I became very sick two months after moving into the moldy unit and continued to worsen for two years without knowing the level of mold I was exposed to every day. I became homebound and close to bed-bound so I was breathing in the mold 24/7. I had mono in the year prior to moving into apt but I was fully recovered for ten months (and working full-time symptom free and got married in that period.)

I moved into moldy unit, got ill two months later and never recovered. So maybe the mono/EBV made me more susceptible or maybe the mold re-activated the EBV and other viruses (which are still highly positive on tests to this day including IgM and Early Antigen levels) but at this point I just want to get well no matter what you call it. I focused on the viruses and took Famvir and then Valcyte but had no improvements as I was breathing in mold the entire time. Then the MCAS started and went haywire until I was hospitalized and that became the focus so I could find a way to eat and I found an amazing MCAS specialist who I continue to work with.

Probably mold somehow triggered ME in you.

This is what I now suspect and that it was the final nail in the coffin.

I do think some of Shoemaker's stuff makes sense, I'm just not sure all the links he believes are really proven - which doesn't mean they're wrong. I know he's not your personal doc, but he's sort of the founding father of the mold/biotoxin school of thought. I've heard horrible things about him as a person in terms of how he relates to patients. He doesn't dismiss their symptoms, he is just arrogant, condescending, and rude. This is not first hand information - I've never met the man or any mold/biotoxin doctor.

I honestly have no idea re: Shoemaker but my mold doc is not like that at all and is very kind and helpful.

I'm glad you found some answers and are feeling better. I'm sorry for everything you've had to go through and that you lost all your belongings and took such a financial hit. It does sound like you're getting past it though, and rebuilding a life, so that's all good news.

I am still in the process of finding answers, still having tests, and about to start some new treatments. I am still very ill and my biggest problems are severe dysautonomia (I use wheelchair and cannot walk more than a few feet), shortness of breath and lung problems, muscle weakness, and more recently dizziness/balance issue and increased pain levels. But we are finally in a very nice mold-free apt and trying to re-build our life from square one. I am lucky to have a lot of support from family & friends and hiring a caregiver starting tomorrow to help me out a few days per week at home.

Did you do any of the other Shoemaker tests and which if any were normal/abnormal? e.g. TGF-beta, HLA-DR/DQ, MSH, C4a, C3a, MMP9, VEGF, etc.

My mold doc does not feel that most of those tests are helpful but I did do the HLA gene test on my own, RTL urine test on my own (all before finding her) and then did other urine & stool tests for mold, TGF-beta, C4a, nasal swab test, and some others I am forgetting. I asked her about VEGF and VIP and others I read about and she is not opposed to them but said they would not change my overall treatment plan.

Hope this helps!
 
Messages
4
Hello,

Not sure if anyone is still active on this forum, but I have attached my labs hoping that someone can help me out with interpreting my HLA's.

I have all of the classic CFS/Mold/Undiagnosed Illness symptoms.

IBS
Autonomic Nervous Issues: ( Urinary frequency, poor circulation, sleep issues, anxiety, adrenaline surges, muscle spasms, orthostatic hypertension, etc.... )
Eye Pain
Headaches
Ear Pain
Tinnitus
Muscle Pains
Muscle Spasms
Twitching
Poor Digestion
Brain Fog
Dizziness
Shortness of Breath
So on, and so on....

I have been to 30 Drs. and none of them have the slightest clue. I started seeing a new Dr who just ran some blood work that I was unfamiliar with. C4a, MTHFR, HLA's etc.

Well, unfortunately it appears that I am all screwed up. The deeper I dig the more clues I get. If anyone can please help with the HLA's I would appreciate it. I dont see her for another 2 weeks and I am trying to get some research done before I see her.

Many Thanks!
 

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Forebearance

Senior Member
Messages
568
Location
Great Plains, US
Hi @bjm0360 ,

My, you really had a lot of lab tests done. You must have a good knowledgeable doctor.
I hope it was affordable for you to do all those.

Well, Dr. Shoemaker uses his panel of tests to judge a patient's level of inflammation in some key areas. If you put all the results together, it can paint a picture that might be consistent with some kind of biological neurotoxin poisoning.

He uses the HLA tests to get an insight into which neurotoxin might be your particular Achilles' heal.
it's been a while since I've done an interpretation of someone's HLA results, but I get:
11-3-52B and 17-2-52B

The first group is a multi-susceptilbe haplotype. It means your body has more trouble detoxing many kinds of biological neurotoxins. The second one is close to the mold-susceptible haplotype of 17-2-52A.

I'm not sure what it means if you have a 52B instead of a 52A in the third spot of that haplotype. You'd better ask your doctor about that.

If it turns out to be a mold-susceptile haplotype, then you'd have one multi-susceptible and one mold-susceptible. That's a very common combo in people with our illness, so you would not be alone.

Best wishes with your research!
And I hope your doctor has some good ideas of treatments to offer you.
Forebearance
 
Messages
4
@Forebearance

Ha! That's not the half of it. I have a 3 ring binder full of tests. Up until I read all of this stuff by Dr Shoemaker I thought I had every test done you can think of.

I have been to 3 Rheumatologists, 3 neurologists, an Endocrinologist, an immunologist, and several primary Drs.
I definitely have autonomic nervous problems, and I believe a histamine release issue. Whenever I have issues I get hives on my left rib cage. Only there. I don't know if it's my body dumping histamine or a reaction to something specific.