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How Might Ativan, Clonazapem Increase Strength?

Discussion in 'Post-Exertional Malaise, Fatigue, and Crashes' started by Rossy191276, Aug 10, 2018.

  1. Rossy191276

    Rossy191276 Senior Member

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    I read where for Whitney Dafoe ativan increases his strength for a short period. I am also interested in this as clonazapem does the same for me. I am completely bed bound and have had periods of months at a time when I am too weak to talk at all. I can currently talk in short sentences but only a few times a day. But after I take clonazapem as well as the expected calming effects it also strengthens me allowing me to talk much easier and do more leg movements in bed for several hrs.

    I did find some research that GABA down regulates proinflammatory T cell states. I thought this might have some potential relevance to the Mike Davis T-CELL clonal expansion hypothesis but figured that any effect that these drugs have on potentially reducing t-cell activity would take longer than the 1-2 hr for these drugs to have their effect.

    Any ideas appreciated :)
     
  2. Shoshana

    Shoshana Northern USA

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    I wonder if BCAA's might help you?

    Or, if you have trouble eating, then perhaps Collagen Peptides, the powder dissolves in any liquid beverage.
     
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  3. Malea

    Malea

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    The reason for the increased strength, energy could be also because of the mast cell calming effect.

    I have severe MCAS and when taking Ativan I become very clear and calm for some hours, reduced hyperacusis, anxiety and POTS..able to talk a little bit longer etc. Kind of like a piece of my old-self.
    Unfortunately I‘m not tolerating it when taking regularly.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
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  4. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    I remember the days when i first took clonazepam, it was such a magic pill. I felt so much better, my brain fog was nearly gone, i had much more physical endurance, almost every symptom improved.
    Then i became physically addicted to that poison for a few years and it started to turn against me. It took me over 12 months to quit, it was HELL. Look up post-withdrawal syndrome. Benzodiazepines are not the solution to our disease.
    Not everyone experiences such a horrific withdrawal but still.... be very careful.
     
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  5. Shoshana

    Shoshana Northern USA

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    I just want to say that, I know that many people have truly had serious difficulties from clonazepam,
    but some of us have not.

    Even though I do have difficulties with a great MANY meds and with many other items, including some supplements, I did not have the troubles that some have had with clonazepam.
    I was able to keep my dose low, it lowered some of my sufferings, and I did not have any trouble whenever I wanted to go off of it. I know some others who have done okay with it as well.

    Just want to let people know, that some of us do tolerate it well, and each person needs to decide what they need to do, in order to manage this illness and the symptoms.
    Some people decide they need to take meds they wish they didn't, especially if they suffer badly and IF they find that a particular med does alleviate it for them, or enables them to do something else.

    Also, I wanted to welcome @Rossy191276 (and anyone else) to join in on any topic in the Community Lounge section,
    to say hello and leave a short sentence, anyplace there, such as General Chat, to give you a bit of social interaction with nice, understanding people.
    I get so isolated from my severely disabling level of illness, that I find it helps with that limitation. Makes me feel less isolated, while homebound and unable to do much.
    It might help one of you, as well.
    :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
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  6. Rossy191276

    Rossy191276 Senior Member

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    Hi @Shoshana thanks for your reply. Yes I do take BCAA's and not sure if they are helping or not. Besides a period of a couple of months when I ha a terrible time with digestion that i think was caused by antibiotics I eat really well and healthily but I remain super skinny and can't put on weight- another symptom I don't understand though might be due to metabolism of food issues that have been reported in some research...
     
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  7. Rossy191276

    Rossy191276 Senior Member

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    Cheers @Malea I didn't know about GABA being a mast cell stabiliser. There seems to be quite a lot of possible causes of increased strength. Someone of the other forum said that they thought they heard Ron Davis say it might have an effect on ATP production as well.

    Cheers for the warning @Thinktank I have read about these potential issues and try to stay on the lowest dose possible and have several days off taking them at a time when I can after taking them for about a year straight. I definitely had withdrawal but wasn't as bad as I expected.
     
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  8. Rossy191276

    Rossy191276 Senior Member

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    Further to this thread someone on the other thread just wrote that they had found Ativan was somehow increasing ATP i think via the nano needle testing they did...
     
  9. RYO

    RYO Senior Member

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    My suspicion is that one component of ME/CFS is a dysfunctional autonomic nervous system. BZDs may help the same way low dose valium helps with vertigo from labyrinthitis/vertigo. The brain is getting an over amplified signal which is reduced by BZDs. It is not a cure but symptomatic treatment.

    Even the most well conditioned athlete is significantly weakened during severe viral infection. My theory is the resulting weakness is both physiologic and also a nervous system protective mechanism.
     
  10. Belbyr

    Belbyr

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    I got to say Ativan is the only med that gives me any relief. In the beginning it was almost miraculous. Over the years it has lost the 'miraculous' feeling but still helps in my time of need. I try to not take it if I feel like I can get by. I must say, too much of it and I'm a hung over lurch for 1-2 days.
     
  11. Rossy191276

    Rossy191276 Senior Member

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    @Belbyr what effects does Ativan give you... to me the interesting thing is that most seem to report a stregthening effect and that is the case for me with clonazapem
     
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  12. Belbyr

    Belbyr

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    I suffer mostly from bad stomach pain/nausea, muscle pain all over, fatigue, poor sleep, and sometimes my brain doesn't seem quick...

    The Ativan seems to help all of those. I think just the feeling of having the gastro intestinal and muscle pain relief gives me energy to do stuff. This is the only drug that does anything for me.
     
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  13. Seadragon

    Seadragon Senior Member

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    This happened to me too. Be very careful with benzos.
     
  14. wigglethemouse

    wigglethemouse Senior Member

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    Here is the video of the presentation at IMEC13 where Ron Davis talks about Ativan on the nano-needle test.
    https://www.omf.ngo/2018/09/17/ron-davis-iimec13/

    @Rossy191276 I have severe ME (90% bedbound) and Ativan helps me attend doctors visits and blood draws by reducing symptoms, increasing energy, and reducing PEM. I don't take it every day as I think it loses it's effectiveness, as well as long term concerns. I too am interested in what the biological reason is. For me it could be due to it's mast cell stabiliser function, but who really knows.......
     
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  15. wigglethemouse

    wigglethemouse Senior Member

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    @Rossy191276 FYI - I did discuss long term issues with my doctor. She reminded me how severely ill I was and that being severely ill with this disease is a daily living nightmare, I was not using it for psychological reasons but as a mast cell stabilizer, and using a low dose the benefits probably out-weigh the risks. For folks that have mild or moderate ME the risk/benefit decision may be more difficult.
     
  16. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    If benzodiazepines help you, phenibut might help even more. I would get the FAA not the HCL version so as to not be hard on the stomach. It's often described as having the effects of benzos or alcohol with none of the cognitive downsides. E.g. it makes you physically relaxed (it's gabaergic, among other things) along with not dulling your thought. It can also be bought online
     
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  17. TreePerson

    TreePerson Senior Member

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    I find the same thing - there is a definite marked strengthening effect. I have often puzzled over why this should be.

    I am severe and I have used them to be able to leave the house for urgent appointments. I also take them to help me out of a severe crash in order to avoid a downward spiral. I use them more regularly for sleep. After 25 years I am deteriorating but I think this would be faster without the cushion that they provide. I cut them back in my more stable periods and I do suffer withdrawal when I do this.

    I would find it very hard to manage this level of disability and ill health without them and live in dread of my GP refusing to prescribe more. She allows me a certain number which I have to ration.

    I can remember reading sometime ago that when they were first discovered it was known that they had an effect on mitochondria. But it didn’t say what the effect was! I will try to find the link when I am feeling stronger.
     
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  18. Seadragon

    Seadragon Senior Member

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    Some research articles online suggest that certain benzos can suppress cytokine production and/or modulate the immune system in certain ways.

    When I took benzos, quite a few years years ago now, I had a very overactive immune system at that time and I always felt significantly better with my fatigue/muscle pain/neuropathic pain etc when I took a Clonazepam for a couple of days afterwards each time.

    Years of this though and I eventually developed tolerance and then withdrawal symptoms even on stable doses and then finally terrible paradoxical reactions. A horrendous few years followed weaning very slowly off them. I had no choice to do this. I have not taken them for five years now and wouldn't again unless my life depended on it.

    I am now witnessing a fellow ME friend starting to get herself into the same mess with Clonazepam.

    This is why I tell people to be careful.

    That said, I totally understand why people here do use benzos - but please just be very careful to use as sparingly as possible and be aware of potential problems with frequent use (even as much as twice a week which is how I started).
     
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  19. TreePerson

    TreePerson Senior Member

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    Hi @Seadragon could you explain more what you mean by terrible paradoxical reactions? I agree withdrawal symptoms happen even on very low doses. I find it a constant balancing act.
     
  20. Seadragon

    Seadragon Senior Member

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    @TreePerson Basically, during the withdrawal process off benzos which was very difficult and drawn out for me, I seemed to get very jittery and anxious shortly after I took my doses and the withdrawal symptoms seemed to get even worse.

    Before I had to get off benzos, I had developed tolerance to the effects, then after that, I developed interdose withdrawal and then withdrawal symptoms all the time even though I was on a stable dose every other day which had not previously been problematic.

    I do think my case was unusual though judging by what I read on benzo forums back then. Most people weren't suffering as badly as me and had just either become tolerant or developed some side effects and then got off the drugs with less difficulty than I had. I only read of a handful of people that went through it as badly as me. It does happen but it's not the case with everyone.

    I often wonder if the reason I had such problems was because my CNS seems to be so over-sensitised anyway, maybe making me more vulnerable to potential problems with the drug.

    Yes, keep doses as low and taken as rarely as possible if you must take them. It is a very difficult situation for you to be in. I do understand the constant juggling act you face and totally empathise :hug:
     
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