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Help Needed

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by GreenMachineX, May 24, 2018.

  1. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX Senior Member

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    I’m in a difficult place right now with my recovery and can’t figure out the next step. I was taking 1 cap of LEF’s 2 per day for a year with fairly good results, tons of energy, no allergies, just felt pretty good overall, sleeping well. But, I’ve recently figured out that during that, and when I’ve used Thorne’s 2 per day at 1 cap a day, I was also using Gaia Rhodiola. When I stop it, those multis give me horrible terminal insomnia. I go to bed fine, but wake up in 2 hours and have to take taurine, niacin, theanine, melatonin, etc to go back to sleep and still feel malaise and inflammation the next day after that kind of sleep. When I workout, that next day insomnia-hangover feeling is that much worse.

    I thought it was due to too much b6, but now I’m thinking maybe it’s the 150-300mcg of Methyl b12 in it. I can sleep just fine with a multi that has 75mcg Methyl b12, but I don’t have the same energy boost all day. Right now I’m using Thorne’s Basic Nutrients III at 1 cap which gives me 2mg p5p, 175mcg methylfolate, and 75mcg methylb12 and sleep fine. But, 2 caps of this and I struggle with sleep. I bought Seeking Health’s Optimal Methyl One multi, which has 20mg p5p, 400mcg methylfolate, and 25mcg Methyl and hydroxy b12. But, I’m nervous about it because I’ve had some horrible experiences that resulted in ER trips from the wrong combination.

    If it’s the b12, why does only 150mcg give me insomnia?

    I can’t just stop taking a multi because those side effects are even worse (throat feels like it’s closing after meals, prickly skin sensations, lethargy, etc). And something is causing this angular cheilitis. Maybe just more riboflavin with the 1 cap of Thorne 3? The angular cheilitis didn’t show up until I stopped taking the LEF multi which has doses of the b vitamins upwards of 20-30mg each.

    Anyone have any thoughts? I have p5p, and riboflavin to experiment with as well, just scared of making the wrong move.
     
  2. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX Senior Member

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    Couple other things I should mention:
    That high dose LEF multi also made my hair fall like crazy and I was super sensitive to things like caffeine, DHEA, and tyrosine. Off of that multi, I can take tons of both easily, but on that multi, those supplements would overstimulate me over the edge.
     
  3. Runner5

    Runner5 Senior Member

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    PNW
    Do you have any before bed supplements you routinely take to help you sleep? (I'm not help there though, I end up taking Benedryl most nights which my doctor says definitely not to do...)

    I'm not familiar with most of what you're taking or the protocol, but am familiar with the 'melatonin hangover' effect. If I have severe insomnia I'll take L-Tryptophan which converts to melatonin but it knocks me completely out and I'm so hungover for a day or two afterward. Sometimes though I just have to because I don't sleep for days when the insomnia really kicks in.

    What is LEF multi? Could you go back to the Rhodiola? (Which I'm unfamiliar with). What happened when you had L-Tyrosine?

    Interested in your protocol if you could give me more info. :) It at least sounds like you've made headway :D Your name is GreenMachineX -- smoothies? Just curious, just started doing a green smoothie daily. :D *Cheers!*
     
  4. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    It sounds to me like the methylfolate and/or the methylcobalamin in the multi is increasing your methylation. That increases neurotransmitters like nor-epinephrine and dopamine, both very stimulating.

    Methylfolate does that to me. I need to go up on methylfolate very slowly or I also get insomnia.

    Jim
     
  5. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX Senior Member

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    My login name is just a play on my name, the Hulk, Wolverine, and the Terminator movies all in one :).

    The hangover effect I mentioned wasn’t from the melatonin, I meant the hungover feeling of bad quality sleep. When the insomnia is at its worst, even several mg of melatonin do not work.

    The sleep supplement I use has 300mcg Melatonin, 300mg tryptophan, and several herbs like valerian. I then add whatever to try to combat the insomnia when it strikes.

    While the rhodiola works to help me sleep, I just want to find a protocol that lets me function well with minimal supplementation. I may very well give up and go back to it though.
    LEF multi is Life Extension’s 2 Per Day multi. Maybe I should post pictures of the labels of all these multis...
     
  6. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX Senior Member

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    So you doubt it’s the b6? Am I correct in that’s the least likely?
     
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  7. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I'm not certain that it's not the b-6. It's just that over-stimulation is a very, very common side effect of methylcobalamin and methylfolate.

    Although many people also get over-stimulated with b-5, b-6 etc. I would cut out the methylfolate and methylcobalamin first and see how that goes. If that don't work you could move on to the B-6.

    Jim
     
  8. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX Senior Member

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    Gotcha. How long does the insomnia from overmethylation last? Or does it never stop?
     
  9. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    Mine usually is gone in 24 hours. There are a few people that it lasts longer for but it shouldn't last more than a day or so.

    Jim
     
  10. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX Senior Member

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    Do you mean if you stop taking the b12 or folate or if you keep taking it? If my insomnia is from increased methylation and I never stop taking it, will the insomnia eventually stop?
     
  11. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX Senior Member

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    The rest of my current protocol I forgot to mention:
    3 grams vitamin C
    5000iu Vitamin D
    15mg zinc carnosine
    300mg KSM-66
    125mg Sensoril
    300mg magnesium citrate (switching to mag taurate in a couple days)
    3 grams taurine
    2.4 grams EPA/DHA
    1 cap Seeking Health Bifidobacterium Probiotic
    15mg Sublingual DHEA
    125mcg Synthroid
    100mg testosterone cypionate (per week)

    I also follow a ketogenic diet for energy, clarity of thought, and bodybuilding.
     
  12. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    If you stop taking the b12 and methylfolate and your symptoms go away, then you know that's what was causing them.:)

    It should but it might be better to stop the supplements and if you want to start them again. You could start them at a very low dose and hopefully not have the side effects.

    Jim
     
  13. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX Senior Member

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    Gotcha. Tomorrow I’ll stick with 1 cap of the Thorne Basic Nutrients 3, and just add 12.5mg p5p, if I sleep fine tonight. If I sleep fine with that tomorrow night, I’ll add in 10mg riboflavin and ride that for a few days.
     
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  14. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX Senior Member

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    Had an idea that maybe the zinc carnosine with breakfast was having a downer effect, so used 2 caps again of this Thorne Basic Nutrients 3 (providing 3mg p5p, 333mcg from calcium dominate and methylfolate combined and 150mcg methyl- and adeno-b12 combined) this morning and will take the zinc before bed. So far, no lethargy or brain fog so I may be on to something.
     
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  15. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX Senior Member

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    Well, zinc at night only helped a little, but still have been awake since 3am, and 2mg melatonin, 2 grams taurine, 200mg theanine and 1 cap of sensoril ashwagandha didn’t put me back to sleep. Guess I still need to drop to 1 cap of Thorne multi, but also going to increase b2 for a few days as I believe I may be deficient in it somehow after reading the b2 I love you thread a little. The brain fog, angular cheilitis, tongue swelling and some other things led me to this. We’ll see. But, I am considering staying at 2 caps of the multi and just taking rhodiola later in the day which seems to turn off excess stimulation, although, like I’ve said before, not sure that’s the healthiest option either. Getting frustrated with this.
     
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  16. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX Senior Member

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    I was wrong about the b2 deficiency. That didn’t lead anywhere. But now I’m wondering if I’m just folate deficient. It’s the only nutrient I don’t actually get 100% with, but if I take any of these multis with 100% of it, I get insomnia. I’ve been taking enough folate in my Thorne’s Basic Nutrients 3 to meet the actual rda for 2 days and already mouth symptoms are improving, but waking up frequently in the middle of the night again. Took rhodiola today so that should counter it based on previous experiments.

    Now, I was negative for the C677T and A1298C mthfr mutations, so do I really even need these Methyl multis? Is that why I’m super sensitive to them and get insomnia? Should I be looking for a basic multi to fulfill the gaps in my diet like Seeking Health’s non-Methyl multi that uses only calcium folinate and hydroxocobalamin and adenosylcobalamin?
     
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  17. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    You might do better with the un-methylated versions of the vitamins. The calcium folinate, hydroxocobalamin and adenosylcobalamin. Some people do.

    Unfortunately it's all trial and error. What you are suggesting though, makes sense.

    Jim
     
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  18. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX Senior Member

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    Thanks. And through trial and error, wasting a lot of money lol.
     
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  19. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I hear you. I wish there was a better way. I probably have a box full of supplements that I can't use because of the side effects they cause. :lol:

    Jim
     
  20. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX Senior Member

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    Same here. Well, the whole top row of my cupboard is full...such a bummer.
     
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