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Has Big Pharma caused us mitochondrial damage?

heapsreal

iherb 10% discount code OPA989,
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10,104
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australia (brisbane)
It's important to talk to your doctor about the risks vs. benefits.

Unfortunately, my type of high cholesterol is supposedly inheritedl

Barb

Basically what my dr said, its inherited.

Whats strange is that since i have had cfsme and had regular blood work my cholesterol has bounced up and down except for the last 12 months.

I do wonder if the high cholesterol has to do with adrenal fatigue/dysfunction and the liver pumps out more cholesterol to make hormones, which it isnt anyway as im supplementing those.

Also we are said to have an anabolic/catabolic ratio, maybe the longer one is ill the catabolic mechanisms take over, so there is alot of cellular damage not being repaired. cholesterol is increased to help try and compensate for this. So if we can increase anabolism and decrease catabolism, we might shift our metabolism into a better balance to improve general recovery. For alot of us infections cause catabolic process so treating them is closer to the source??

I think its a combination of everything i have said and the aging process and to make it more concrete, they say those with cfs/me age faster due to increased inflammation/oxidation bla bla bla.

For many of us we are plugging holes as they ocurr while we wait for the magical cure.

At the moment i feel like im struggling in a post viral state from the couple of recent shingles infections, dam cholesterol is another dam hole to clog.
 

Mij

Senior Member
Messages
2,353
just don't know , a heart attack on top off ME would probably finish me off??? Just hope like hell all the antioxidants I have taken over the years has prevented cholesterol build up in the arteries.

I'm currently awaiting my cholesterol results. I've been taking CoQ10, 200mg/day for the past year (with a 2 month break in between). I also take LA. Last year my LDL was on the high side (I eat a lot of coconut oil), but my HDL also went up too, so I guess the ratio was ok since my doctor didn't follow up.

Anyways, I'm anxious to see if antioxidants reduced LDL.
 

Rand56

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
There is no telling how many different ailments/conditions Big Pharma has actually perpetuated. It's big business and all about the money.
 

heapsreal

iherb 10% discount code OPA989,
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australia (brisbane)
There is no telling how many different ailments/conditions Big Pharma has actually perpetuated. It's big business and all about the money.


Not just big pharma but big supp warehouses. I have gone through alot of fish oil, even when they said people dont know they need to increase the number of fish oil caps, i was already at that number of 9 a day split throughout the day. I got no changes in cholesterol, ldl, triglycerides or reducing inflammation, mostly back pain? no effect what so ever.

we need to find the right drugs and the right supps??
 

Mij

Senior Member
Messages
2,353
yup, no changes in my LDL when taking high dose fish oils for years. But, it helped my brain so I'm still taking it.

I've been really good in the last few years by not jumping on the bandwagon with buying supplements, it's hard not to with all the claims they make. I'm really trying to restrain myself from buying freeze dried royal jelly, the 4-6% 10-HDA, it's got some pretty good studies to back it up and also has some immune modulating and hormonal balance benefits. I think I will probably cave and buy it :p
 

Eeyore

Senior Member
Messages
595
Lowering cholesterol doesn't actually reduce the risk of CAD or heart attack. Many trials have shown the same results. Statins do, however, lower heart disease risk - at least in some cohorts. This is probably why your doctor wants you to take statins and not fibrates. Fibrates are associated with increased cancer risk and all cause mortality, and they have a bigger effect on triglycerides than they do on LDL's anyways - but at comparable levels of LDL reduction to statins, they show no decrease in heart disease incidence.

The problem goes all the way back to the origin of the cholesterol theory of heart disease. The observation was (correctly) made that elevated cholesterol levels were correlated with increased risks of heart disease. However, the scientists studying it made the worst of all statistical sins and assumed correlation was causation - i.e. that the cholesterol was a cause of the heart disease, rather than a bystander. Later studies have all shown that lowering cholesterol doesn't lower heart disease risk at all.

That doesn't mean that statins don't lower heart disease risk though - and this is why they are front line drugs. They inhibit an enzyme in the liver called HMG-CoA reductase. In doing so, they down-regulate the synthesis of cholesterol. They also downregulate the production of CoQ10 (which you should be taking a lot of if you take statins). Neither of these mechanisms explain the anti-inflammatory effects of statins though. That is because they block inflammation by inhibiting isoprenoid synthesis. This, while not lowering cholesterol directly, does lower inflammation, and is probably the only useful thing that statins do. It is also why they have shown benefits in heart disease prevention.

Cholesterol is just a marker for the underlying inflammation in your body. What comes next is my view, and not necessarily scientific consensus. Cholesterol is upregulated in response to inflammation, in particular membrane peroxidation. This is because the primary, and critical role of cholesterol in the body is to increase the fluidity and integrity of cell membranes. It is interspersed between the phospholipids of the phospholipid bilayer of the cell membrane of all human cells (and all animal cells) and we cannot live without it. It is also a precursor for steroid hormone synthesis and Vitamin D3. Fungi use something called ergosterols, which are similar in function but structurally distinct, and many antifungals target the ergosterols in their cell membranes. If you buy vitamin D3, it's usually from lanolin (from sheep), and is called cholecalciferol. If you buy vitamin D2, it's from fungus - this is cheaper - and it's called ergocalciferol. The difference is whether the precursor is the animal-produced substance cholesterol or the fungus-produced substance ergosterol.

In ME, there is already evidence of increased inflammation and lipid peroxidation as well as abnormal Fenton chemistry and redox state control. The primary source in eukaryotes of oxidative stress is the mitochondrion. The electrons produced in aerobic respiration in the mitochondrial electron transport chain produce energy via oxidative phosphorylation. This is when they pass through the membrane and in the process combine an ADP with a Pi (inorganic phosphate) to make ATP.

My suspicion is that in ME, during periods of relapse, our cholesterol will go up. This may not be genetic - but people with a genetic propensity for high cholesterol will be represented in the ME population (as far as I know) at least as much as in the general population. My own cholesterol does increase during periods of relapse, and improves during times when I feel better, due to reduction in inflammation.

I am not currently on any statins. I think there may be a role for niacin, but it's not a simple question. Trials (notably the AIM-HIGH trial) have shown that while niacin does lower cholesterol further beyond statins alone, it had no effect on cardiovascular mortality. I think niacin may have more utility in lowering lp(a), a genetically determined risk factor, and there may be benefits from its ability to increase LDL particle size, but it's not clear if that's true. I have a number of genetic markers that are protective from heart disease, and both parents are completely free of it in their mid-late 60's and don't even have mild hypertension, AND I had an Agatston calcium score of 0 a few yrs ago. Additionally, I learned recently that I have a rare mutation in the APOC3 gene that cuts triglycerides in half and has similar effects on the rates of heart disease and stroke (an allele frequency of 1 in 720 in caucasians, and not found in other races) - which explained why my Italian great aunt ate 2-3 sticks of butter daily (whole, with nothing, like a banana) and lived to 90 w/o any heart disease. Thus, I wouldn't encourage everyone to follow my approach. It's based on a careful analysis of genetic and family information and tailored to me - my endocrinologist and I have discussed it at length.

Statins are tricky - we do know that overall, they lower risk of heart disease, probably in spite of lowering cholesterol. Most convincing trials have been performed for 2ndary prevention in men who have already had a heart attack.

Lots of info is available in the literature, but if you want a good history of how cholesterol got so demonized, check out Dr. Stephen Sinatra's "The Great Cholesterol Myth." My doctor recommended to me that I read it. He explains various approaches to cholesterol management. I think he also has a website where you can read stuff for free.

First though, I'd recommend you get some genetic profiling done for heart disease risk. You can do this through 23andme or similar companies or through a regular Quest or other lab with your doctor's prescription (google Berkeley Heart Test). Have a carotid doppler, and if you want even more info and have higher risk, an Agatston score.

High cholesterol IS an indication of cardiovascular risk - primarily due to excess inflammation. Lowering cholesterol, in and of itself, probably has no impact on cardiovascular risk, and it may even make things worse if the increased cholesterol is being used to fix membranes throughout the body and deal with oxidative stress. Fish oils DO lower risk of heart disease. Baby aspirin does as well, but not in everyone, and we can now determine whether or not you will benefit based on your genetics (either 23andme or quest, again - it's also part of the full berkeley heart test). Look at particle size as well - large, buoyant LDL's are FAR less dangerous (and may be protective) whereas small, dense LDL's are bad. Lipoprotein(a) or lp(a) is a major risk factor, especially if badly elevated - this is treatable to a degree with niacin, although it's not clear if this lower risk.

Any drugs that reduce cholesterol will have a risk of liver damage and rhabdomyolysis. It's a fundamental effect of lowering cholesterol. You can't get around it. Aggressively lowering cholesterol will increase rates of side effects.

Homocysteine, unlike cholesterol, is likely a modifiable risk factor. i.e. We believe, but do not know for certain, that lowering elevated homocysteine will lower heart disease risk. This, imo, is the most useful thing to do with methylation cycle genetics.

My cholesterol is not too bad right now - about 215 total, with HDL's of about 75 and triglycerides very low (can be as low as 20-30, or up to the 60's - but that's genetics, and not something most people will find). My lp(a) is borderline, so I take niacin for it. I don't think it's unreasonable or dangerous to do so, but it has risks all the same, and I get my liver function checked. Mine is by prescription, so there is less flushing (don't buy otc no-flush, it doesn't work). I take 4g of flaxseed oil and 4 fisol per day (these are enteric coated fish oils, so no regurg). I also take CoQ10. This seems to work for me, but again, I have favorable genetics here, so I can afford a less aggressive approach. In a higher risk patient, I think statins need to be considered. Get as much info as you possibly can before jumping in. Look at measures of inflammation - definitely get a hsCRP - this is well known to most docs and used pretty often - and obviously a homocysteine level as mentioned above. Sed rate can be useful but in ME tends to run really low in most and may falsely suggest lack of inflammation.

These are complex questions and should be discussed with your doctor. I have a pretty good understanding, and I still discuss it with my endo, who is very expert in this area. Statins aren't all that most docs and pharma companies would have you believe, BUT they remain the single most proven drug for cardiovascular risk prevention, especially 2ndary prevention, and especially in men. Whether the new aggressive targets are merited is controversial.

Lowering your cholesterol to "normal" range with statins does NOT have the same effect as lowering it with lifestyle changes. I know we are all limited in exercise capacity. However, we can still eat a healthy diet. Cut the trans fats from your diet completely - and don't trust the trans fat category on the label, read the ingredients for anything that says "partially hydrogenated." Sat fats are probably ok in moderation. Avoid vegetable oils (polyunsaturated) like the cheapo mazolas and similar. Cook with olive oil and peanut oil, the latter if you are going to get it very hot (olive oil at moderately high temps can convert to less healthy forms of fat - peanut oil is highly temperature resistant). These are oils that are high in monounsaturated fats, which reduce inflammation, as they divert metabolism from the arachidonic acid pathway which leads to increased synthesis of prostaglandins. Be aware that aspirin and fish oils are blood thinners - and too much can be a bad thing, especially if you have a bleeding diathesis to begin with, which may be present in ME in some people.

As I said - a very complicated question, but fortunately, one we know a great deal about. Fortunes have been poured into studying this, as it is the leading killer in the western world, so unlike treating ME, we aren't flying blind. We probably do have elevated heart disease risk from having ME though, due to excess inflammation and other factors - but likely can still take advantage of known risk markers and treatments.
 

pogoman

Senior Member
Messages
292
ok, fibrates and niacin I know wayyy too much of.
first off, both are used for high triglycerides and not so much for cholesterol.
as there is a linkage between trigs and cholesterol levels, lowering one helps the other to a limited extent.

Fibrates can also cause muscle pain, when in combination with statins the risk increases.
for me, I've tried about 3 or 4 different fibrates and they all caused digestive issues.
one of the side effects of fibrates is Steatorrhea.

with niacin you have to make sure you take the right kind, I forget which but one is worthless for controlling lipids.
the prescription form of niacin is very expensive from what I heard at the time.
an affordable otc controlled release version of niacin is Slo-Niacin in different strengths.
 

Tired of being sick

Senior Member
Messages
565
Location
Western PA USA
I have just started a low dose statin after my dr strongly suggested it. Cholesterol was quite high and we did several blood tests a few months apart with similar high results. In the past my cholesterol would go high and then back to normal from one test to the other without any dietary changes. I think probably a weird cfs thing.

I have been on q10 for quite some time and probably 6months on 400mg a day .

Been on crestor 5mg for only a week. I haven't noticed any symptoms from it yet but i am keeping my eyes on it.

Maybe you could Try taking Krill oil for high cholesterol..

My PCP recently put me on it..

I have had my Dad taking CoQ10 for 4 years now(he had quadruple bypass done in 2011, he is 85 now)

I just ordered him a new batch from Viva labs and he turned into the energizer bunny overnight!

He is always doing something active, from dawn til dusk..
 
Last edited:

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
Krill oil

You have to be careful about krill oil as krill are related to shrimp. Krill, like shrimp can give people an allergic reaction even if they haven't had a reaction before. I didn't realize this can happen more frequently than people realize but not so frequent to recommend people stop eating shrimp.

This happened to my daughter after a lifetime of eating shrimp. It was quite a scary experience as she was alone. She ran out of her house and collapsed on the sidewalk. Fortunately, a neighbor saw her and was able to get her help.in time! Whew!

But listen to your doctor.

Barb
 

minkeygirl

But I Look So Good.
Messages
4,678
Location
Left Coast
A few years ago I had great luck with red yeast rice (statin) and coq10 lower all my numbers.

Now, even with omega 3 red yeast rice, nattokinase and some other thing, can't remember right now, policosanol all numbers are high.

I don't eat much fat and am pretty sure my high numbers are heredity. I'm not going to take an rx.
 

Rand56

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
Someone would have to hold a gun to my head for me to take any statin. I saw my mother get pretty immediate side effects from taking them, and others who I have talked to who were/are taking it, get the same side effects. More aches and pains. It didn't take me long to notice that my mom had more shallow and labored breathing while on it. I immediately got her doctor to get her off of it.

Sorry, and I know I'm biased, but I just think it's a bullshit drug. Big Pharma pepetuating illness with this effed up drug.
 
Last edited:

Tired of being sick

Senior Member
Messages
565
Location
Western PA USA
You have to be careful about krill oil as krill are related to shrimp. Krill, like shrimp can give people an allergic reaction even if they haven't had a reaction before. I didn't realize this can happen more frequently than people realize but not so frequent to recommend people stop eating shrimp.

This happened to my daughter after a lifetime of eating shrimp. It was quite a scary experience as she was alone. She ran out of her house and collapsed on the sidewalk. Fortunately, a neighbor saw her and was able to get her help.in time! Whew!

But listen to your doctor.

Barb
I was gonna tell you that I have been eating,loving shrimp my entire life so no worries there,.Lol..

So I just started taking it today 500mg once a day..

So we will see..

PS

Thanks for the heads up..
 

heapsreal

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Messages
10,104
Location
australia (brisbane)
Theres side effects to every medication but also side effects to not using medications. Sore muscles vs a sore heart muscle, one needs to way up the risks. My ldl is 3 times the normal range, im not keen on having a heart attack and if i survived it would greatly worsen fatigue.

not sure if its my imagination or not but my muscle pains are low since i have been on crestor. From what i have read they think its reduction in heart disease could be more to do with its anti inflammatory effects on lowering crp more so than lowering cholesterol . Also research showing it reduce inflammatory cytokines like tnf alpha as well as having some antiviral effects .

If one doesnt have side effects to these drugs than there is research showing it could be helpful with certain abnormal markers commonly found
in cfsme.
 

Eeyore

Senior Member
Messages
595
@heapsreal

Statins are definitely anti-inflammatory. The inhibit isoprenoid synthesis in cells.

Just because we have ME doesn't mean we don't have to worry about other stuff like heart disease. Especially for the guys and women past child bearing age, it's very important to watch heart health. If anything the research suggests we are at greater risk because of the ME.

I think it's probably really smart to take crestor if your LDL is 3x the normal range... that's not a problem one should ignore!
 

Rand56

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
The Cholesterol Myths - Uffe Ravnskov, MD, PhD

http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm


Google "Dr. Stephanie Seneff cholesterol"


Or just google "cholesterol myth" or "statin scam" and I think you'll find that everything said isn't just from low-lifes living in their grandmother's basement, who haven't showered for weeks, who have nothing better to do but blog their time away with some kind of revenge agenda against statins.
 

heapsreal

iherb 10% discount code OPA989,
Messages
10,104
Location
australia (brisbane)
The Cholesterol Myths - Uffe Ravnskov, MD, PhD

http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm


Google "Dr. Stephanie Seneff cholesterol"


Or just google "cholesterol myth" or "statin scam" and I think you'll find that everything said isn't just from low-lifes living in their grandmother's basement, who haven't showered for weeks, who have nothing better to do but blog their time away with some kind of revenge agenda against statins.


The recent research i have read shows crestor (unsure of other statins) did reduce incidents of heart disease and deaths from heart disease . What they found was it didnt necessarily correspond with lowering of cholesterol or even those with normal cholesterol . What they are saying is its lowering inflammtion involved in heart disease . So u might be right about cholesterol to a point but the reasons why crestor works isn't via lowering cholesterol but reducing inflammation .

you will find plenty of research on inflammation and heart disease.

I still dont want to gamble on excessive total and ldl cholesterol which i have. Slightly elevated cholesterol one can take a gamble with and weigh up with other risk factors like smoking, hypertension, obesity and inactivity.