Glycine for REM Sleep?

[Arius]

I just ordered glycine. I'm hoping to have it by Friday or Monday.
Apparently it helps restore REM sleep.

Starting at a dose of 3 grams (taken before bed).

I'll keep you all posted on how it goes.

In the meantime, has anybody tried this already? If so, how did it go?

 

[Wolfcub]

@Arius I have never heard of Glycine, so that is interesting. Yes I would like to know how it works for you.

One thing I noticed is some kind of disruption in dreaming and dream recall. Now and again I get sudden dream recall of so many dreams but mostly it's nothing. I always seem to feel better when I remember my dreams. It seems very peculiar that feeling unwell can disrupt REM sleep (or memory of dreams....I am not sure which.)

 

[Hip]

I was experimenting with glycine in recent weeks. I found that doses beyond around 3 grams daily or more tended to cause some mild depression symptoms. This has also been reported online (reports say that less that 3 grams is OK, but 5 grams or more may cause some depression).

I did also get the feeling that glycine in higher dose of 3 grams would cause some some slight mental deadness and loss of enthusiasm. But I was taking glycine during the day, not as a sleep aid. Taken before bed, that mental deadness might be useful to promote sleep.

 

[Arius]

@Arius
One thing I noticed is some kind of disruption in dreaming and dream recall. Now and again I get sudden dream recall of so many dreams but mostly it's nothing. I always seem to feel better when I remember my dreams. It seems very peculiar that feeling unwell can disrupt REM sleep (or memory of dreams....I am not sure which.)

Remembering your dreams is an indicator that you've gone through a REM cycle. I have the same thing - feeling better on days where I remember dreaming. In my case, I did a sleep study and found that I am spending about 6% of my time in REM sleep when I should be spending more like 20% of my time there. My brain panics and "spikes" whenever I start falling into a deep sleep, waking me up instead of letting me heal and rejuvenate. Years of excellent sleep hygiene have not fixed this.

It's actually NOT that strange that poor sleep and immune dysfunction are linked. I am convinced that CFS involves and is likely caused by hypothalamic dysregulation. The hypothalamus regulates many things, including immune function, REM sleep, and hormone production, and it has some sort of interactive relationship with cellular mitochondria. So if it stops working correctly, you've got disrupted sleep cycles, an underactive immune system (leading to EBV and other infections) or possibly an over-active immune system (leading to auto-immune symptoms), mitochondrial failure... basically, CFS/ME.

So what causes hypothalamic dysregulation? Well, for one thing the hypothalamus can be damaged by too much cortisol production. High cortisol levels are caused by trauma and high-stress lifestyles - which explains why so many of us were high-achievers, athletes, etc before falling ill.

 

[Arius]

I found that doses beyond around 3 grams daily or more tended to cause some mild depression symptoms. This has also been reported online (reports say that less that 3 grams is OK, but 5 grams or more may cause some depression).

Thanks for that info, Hip. I'm curious to see if the deadening/depression is still a thing if I'm taking the glycine at night. I'll be sure to report back about that.

I don't know how high of a dose I'll need. I plan to start at 3 grams and then gradually up the dose if need be. Honestly, I haven't done much reading and still need to figure out how much to increase the dose by. I get so exhausted doing research and can only do a little bit every day.

I plan to just dive in and go for it. I mean, I know the effect that 10mg of melatonin has on me vs 5, ie, just through experimentation. So I figure I'll do the same with the glycine.

 

[Sundancer]

I've been using glycine for more then a year now, in the daytime to reduce muscletension ( twice a gram) and 3 grams before sleeping. It does help sleeping but I still do not have good sleep. But happy with this sup, relatively cheap, easy to dose, no additives, tastes good.

I did not have low mood or anything from it happily. reducing the daytime doses now because the need is less. Just had severe PEM and then I go back to my twice a gram.

much luck, hope it helps you as well as me.

 

[Runner5]

I did try it. Not great results. I did the 3grams.

Over all had best luck with L-Tryptophan. Since changing my diet and following the "fuel up before workout - have a recovery shake afterward - get in your aminos and eat a lot of plants" protocol though, I actually started sleeping on my own okay. which is a first for me.

I quit Clonezepam and that's notorious for messing up sleep (GABA) and it messed up mine for 3 years, but I guess it has finally gone back to almost normal. I still get up at least once in the night but that's not so bad compared to what it used to be, wide awake 3-6 times during the night.

 

[Dan_USAAZ]

I just ordered glycine. I'm hoping to have it by Friday or Monday.
Apparently it helps restore REM sleep.

Starting at a dose of 3 grams (taken before bed).

I'll keep you all posted on how it goes.

In the meantime, has anybody tried this already? If so, how did it go?

Hi @Arius,
For about a year I had been taking 3 – 4 grams of glycine throughout the day, but not at bedtime. It seemed to help in attempts to exercise. In fact, it definitely helped me exercise harder, but the increased exercise results in much worse PEM and gut problems for several days following. I have found many supplements that allow me increased physical intensity in the short term, but result in much worse PEM payback, but that’s a story for another thread. I am not suggesting that the glycine was directly responsible for any PEM.

You may also want to look into TMG (Trimethylglycine). About two months ago I came across information on TMG and it included details about sleep benefits. Can’t recall all the specifics, but I believe one of the benefits is an increase in IGF-1, which would increase growth hormone. I am now using 2 grams glycine and 2 - 3 grams TMG daily. I take one gram of TMG at bedtime, but have no noticeable changes in sleep quality. I seem to sleep fairly well anyway, even though I wake up unrefreshed and fogged.

I can’t say I notice a huge difference between glycine and TMG, but feel they are both beneficial. The internet information I found on TMG suggested that it may provide some benefits over glycine. As @Sundancer pointed out, being relatively cheap, I will continue to use these.

I will be curious to hear how your evaluation progresses and if you get any sleep benefits.
Good luck!
Dan

 

[Mary]

@Arius - when I first tried glycine for sleep, it helped immediately - the same night - BUT - it caused a huge detox reaction for me. I felt like I had been hit by a truck, got very spacey, got lost going to my sister's house, etc. Then I found that it is used in phase II liver detoxification (see https://www.diagnose-me.com/treatment/liver-detoxification-phase-II-support.php)

I found I had to cut way back and start at a very small dose and work up very gradually over several months. The good news is that after several months of taking glycine, as well as glutamine and inositol, I stopped detoxing at the drop of a hat.- they really seemed to get my detox pathways working properly. But I had to start slow and go slow.

3 grams is a large dose to start with - I could never have tolerated that much in the beginning though it is what I take now, as well as 2000 mg more in the middle of the night. So I'd suggest start lower, maybe 500 mg. and see how you do, and then work up.

 

[Sundancer]

well, I did not start with 3 grams either, slowly building up doses is my take on things. I think I started with a gram.

But @Mary I did not know that glycine is used in liver phase 2, and as mine is too slow ( or phase 1 too fast, but definitely out of balance) that makes it even more useful for me.
good link that, thansk!

I still haven't started inositol or looked at glutamine

 

[Arius]

I took my first dose (3 grams) last night, on an empty stomach, before bed. The results were underwhelming but somewhat positive.

I did not experience any GI distress, which was a potential outcome. (It was advised that I try switching to collagen instead if I did experience distress. Some people do better with collagen, and some do better with pure glycine.)

I did have at least one long, intense dream.

I woke up not feeling any more energized than I usually do, but did find it easier to get out of bed, and interestingly feeling somewhat euphoric / happy. (I've been super depressed for days.)

I'm going to try increasing the dose. Does anybody know how to do this safely/wisely?

I'm not sure if I should try 4g tonight, or stick with 3g for a week or something and then increase it. I know a lot of folks here advise building up slowly, which I'm sure works best for them, but I've never done that in my entire life and I usually do fine.

 

[pamojja]

I'm not sure if I should try 4g tonight, or stick with 3g for a week or something and then increase it. I know a lot of folks here advise building up slowly, which I'm sure works best for them, but I've never done that in my entire life and I usually do fine.

Also would advise to try at least for some weeks the lower dose. You may not forget glycine is a nutrient which if beneficial, should be taken consistently. And consistent intake might give cumulative benefits which isn't possible with single doses. Other than the with the drug model.

On the other hand, driving intake of one nutrient up too fast too high, might unexpectedly deplete other nutrients needed in the same metabolic pathways very fast. And soon the benefits turn into unwanted side-effects. By going slow you've got more time to figure out what's needed before it gets too worse. That applies to all nutrients in general, and isn't specific to glycine.

Admittedly, I too experienced such secondary nutrient depletion very rarely. But the one experienced with Magnesium that severe, that I couldn't correct it by taking up to 2.5 g/d of elemental oral Mg during the last 10 years. Only the MG IVs I've got since last November finally could correct it.

Also most benefits I experienced was with long term use, some over many, many years. Which couldn't be predicted ever by single dosing, or fast titration of doses. More isn't always better - which might be found out also after many years - beside simply wasting money on nutrients at doses simply never needed in the long run.

 

[Arius]

... consistent intake might give cumulative benefits which isn't possible with single doses.

On the other hand, driving intake of one nutrient up too fast too high, might unexpectedly deplete other nutrients needed in the same metabolic pathways very fast. And soon the benefits turn into unwanted side-effects. By going slow you've got more time to figure out what's needed before it gets too worse. That applies to all nutrients in general, and isn't specific to glycine.

This is very helpful.
I really don't know what I'm doing, so your perspective is much appreciated.

 

[Arius]

I just woke up after my 3rd night of glycine.

It's been three nights of intense dreams, which is unusual for me, and definitely suggests that I'm getting more REM sleep.

Notably, tonight is the first night in a long time that I slept through the night without waking up at about 2:30am.

Yesterday I learned that glycine will apparently knock you out of ketosis if you're doing a keto diet, which is a bit annoying - I was considering experimenting with a ketogenic diet in coming weeks. I think good sleep is much more important than being in ketosis, though, so I'm definitely sticking with the glycine.

 

[Arius]

I found this really interesting talk about glycine and inflammation by a scientist who studies amino acid metabolism here:

. Full disclosure: apparently he sells glycine-related products.

 

[Arius]

So I've been taking the glycine (3g) every night for a month now.

Haven't noticed any negative effects. Hip warned of depression, and others mentioned possible negative reactions, but I haven't experienced any of those things.

I also haven't seen any boost in energy. At all.

What I HAVE noticed is that I'm sleeping through the night every night, and having lots of dreams (indicative of more time spent in REM), which for me is a huge benefit and totally worth the $40 I paid for like a 5 month supply of glycine.

Still frustrating though. I was kinda hoping improved sleep quality would translate into SOME boost in energy.

Honestly, at this point I'm starting to think that Mikovits is right and this illness is a virus that disables the immune system. I've been doing a host of holistic treatments for years now with no appreciable benefit to my energy at all. Some of my less crippling symptoms - headaches, sore throats, etc, - have improved slightly with dietary interventions, but that's about it. My body should be healing itself, and it isn't.

Oh well. Going to keep doing what I can and hoping for the best. I think my next crap-shoot is going to be ozone therapy.