Endothelial dysfunction in Lyme

[msf]

Sorry Anciendaze, I didn't realise that we agreed with each other re: certain pathogens causing immune dysfunction.

I think the idea of using the immune response/dysfunction as a biomarker for Lyme is an excellent one; hopefully this is what the Stanford ME/CFS initiative are looking to achieve with their upcoming Lyme study.

 

[anciendaze]

@anciendaze

I agree with you.

I wonder if you ever looked for cytoskeleton dysfunction?

Not per se. The problem is that there are two other big questions that need to be answered: what does it do in healthy cells? and what is it trying to do in defective cells? Transport through the cytoplasm is already a very complicated subject with various cell components moving different things in different directions. It is about like trying to analyze transport in NYC based on aerial photos. This shades into some distinct problems that are extremely difficult in themselves.

When you consider neurons you get into the business of axonal transport. This takes place in much that same way as other movements within cells, but on an entirely different scale. There are neurons reaching from the base of the spine far down into your legs. We may not understand this fully, but that has not stopped viral invaders from using it like a subway system. Rabies virus can infect a person via a bite on a toe, then hitch rides on this system through several neurons which take it to the brain. At that point it changes lines and heads for the amygdala, infecting this to cause rage and biting at the same time virions appear in saliva glands.

I'd point out that we still don't understand rabies well enough to treat established infection, we can only vaccinate to prevent the full disease from developing. I'm hoping we don't have to wait for full understanding of the cytoskeleton to cure or prevent ME/CFS and a long list of diseases. That could easily require another 30 years of background research.

 

[Violeta]

Would the idea of supporting the immune system(naturally) and dealing with pathogens(natural anti's) at the same time make sense?

 

[anciendaze]

Would the idea of supporting the immune system(naturally) and dealing with pathogens(natural anti's) at the same time make sense?

It would if we knew what we were doing. Mostly we don't at present. There are a lot of different actors in immune systems, and we don't seem to know which members of the cast deserve help.

I also have to admit I'm concerned when people tell a treatment is harmless because it is natural. Amanita phalloides is a natural source of especially nasty toxins.

 

[Violeta]

It would if we knew what we were doing. Mostly we don't at present. There are a lot of different actors in immune systems, and we don't seem to know which members of the cast deserve help.

I also have to admit I'm concerned when people tell a treatment is harmless because it is natural. Amanita phalloides is a natural source of especially nasty toxins.

Why would you link to a deadly mushroom?

Oh,yes, then back to the debate and don't look for a way to treat naturally. I get the picture.

 

[anciendaze]

What do you think of colostrum, echinacea, lomatium, and pau d'arco?

I simply don't know. Colostrum alone is a very complicated substance. It helps to prime naive immune systems, but there is considerable reason to believe it can also contain cells infected with viruses. A range of retroviruses appear to be propagated via nursing.

 

[anciendaze]

Before you get upset about the horrors of modern pharmacology, (and believe me, I have seen some), you might check on mortality rates prior to introduction of anything remotely modern. John Graunt's bill of mortality published around 1660, but based on earlier statistics, showed insurers that they could safely bet that 60% of those born in London would die before they reached age 17. The most unnatural aspect of that environment was the existence of a large city population.

 

[Violeta]

What do you think of colostrum, echinacea, lomatium, and pau d'arco?

It would if we knew what we were doing. Mostly we don't at present. There are a lot of different actors in immune systems, and we don't seem to know which members of the cast deserve help.

I also have to admit I'm concerned when people tell a treatment is harmless because it is natural. Amanita phalloides is a natural source of especially nasty toxins.

Before you get upset about the horrors of modern pharmacology, (and believe me, I have seen some), you might check on mortality rates prior to introduction of anything remotely modern. John Graunt's bill of mortality published around 1660, but based on earlier statistics, showed insurers that they could safely bet that 60% of those born in London would die before they reached age 17. The most unnatural aspect of that environment was the existence of a large city population.

I see what you mean, and may the powers that be forbid the finding of a natural solution.

 

[anciendaze]

Back to the subject of the cytoskeleton:

My feeling about cytoskeletal defects is that these may be important under limited circumstances. The cytoskeleton is responsible for not just rigidity, as in more familiar skeletons, but also for transport along paths within cells, and movement of cells as in producing pseudopods. It is involved in transport of molecules which form epitopes on cell membranes. It is involved every time a neuron forms or breaks a synapse or a glial cell blocks a receptor.

However, I feel strongly that most cells are behaving in reasonable ways considering the limited information in their local context. Analyzing every step in internal transport of molecules, or every twitch of movement, is probably an interesting study which can go on into the remote future. I'm not sure that this will help when you carry reductionism below the level of cell-to-cell signalling where I believe many problems take place.

 

[anciendaze]

I see what you mean, and may the powers that be forbid the finding of a natural solution.

I really don't understand what makes a solution "natural" in common speech. Most human beings do not drink human milk at all after weaning. Many are naturally lactose intolerant as adults: they can't even digest milk. The fact that this is healthful for infants does nothing to relieve the cramps and bloating they experience.

If you think I am a minion of the powers-that-be you probably haven't read a long list of other posts I've made, like this recent blog post.

What I was trying to convey above was that death is an extremely natural solution for almost any medical problem. When you talk about things that are good for everyone who has survived to adulthood, except for some people who persist in having bad reactions to healthful things, you are likely ignoring all the people who died without reaching adulthood.

I strongly believe in the principle of Primum non nocere. I also have great faith in knowing what you are doing in a particular context. I have repeatedly said that killing off large numbers of innocent bacteria, on the grounds that some of them might be causing disease, is dangerous. I've seen too many examples of viral diseases treated with antibiotics without antiviral properties. Even when some, like minocycline, turn out to have some effect on viruses, they are probably not the treatment of choice. If antibiotics fill lymph nodes with fragments of harmless bacteria inhabiting the gut, lungs or skin, it should be no surprise that immune systems become confused and produce chronic inflammation.

 

[lansbergen]

I wondered because I found a metabolite of levamisole interacts with microtubules.

 

[anciendaze]

I wondered because I found a metabolite of levamisole interacts with microtubules.

I need more than that to go on. You would be amazed at the number of things which interact with microtubules. Perhaps that should be a new topic.

 

[duncan]

Interestingly relevant - i think - study just published in Journal of Medical Microbiology about how Bartonella henselae "can infect and damage endothelial progenator cells". Bartonella is, of course, thought to be a major TBD.

 

[Violeta]

I really don't understand what makes a solution "natural" in common speech. Most human beings do not drink human milk at all after weaning. Many are naturally lactose intolerant as adults: they can't even digest milk. The fact that this is healthful for infants does nothing to relieve the cramps and bloating they experience.

If you think I am a minion of the powers-that-be you probably haven't read a long list of other posts I've made, like this recent blog post.

What I was trying to convey above was that death is an extremely natural solution for almost any medical problem. When you talk about things that are good for everyone who has survived to adulthood, except for some people who persist in having bad reactions to healthful things, you are likely ignoring all the people who died without reaching adulthood.

I strongly believe in the principle of Primum non nocere. I also have great faith in knowing what you are doing in a particular context. I have repeatedly said that killing off large numbers of innocent bacteria, on the grounds that some of them might be causing disease, is dangerous. I've seen too many examples of viral diseases treated with antibiotics without antiviral properties. Even when some, like minocycline, turn out to have some effect on viruses, they are probably not the treatment of choice. If antibiotics fill lymph nodes with fragments of harmless bacteria inhabiting the gut, lungs or skin, it should be no surprise that immune systems become confused and produce chronic inflammation.

Okay, so I see that maybe what you are saying is there is no solution manmade or in nature because we don't know what we are to do. Is that the gist?

 

[anciendaze]

I'm saying that most of what we are doing now, and much of what we propose to do, is based on ignorance. I myself have been the subject of numerous uncontrolled experiments with a wide range of approaches, some I barely survived. One thing which caused me to feel better was an implanted vagus nerve stimulator, and that is far from natural. Even so, I still get blank looks from doctors when I talk about correcting dysautonomia and orthostatic intolerance. "Why do you think you need to lie down?" (it had to do with ringing ears and tunnel vision, now my ears ring constantly,) or "Why do you worry about being able to stand up? I don't see any problem." Those who have accused me of "catastrophizing" have learned caution after I had an apparent seizure, an expensive ride to the hospital, and six-months without driving.

I believe there is a solution out there because I did not always feel as bad as I have in recent years, and I know many people who have no problem with the illness that has left me all but housebound.
I've also learned some things that no doctor ever told me, which have moved me out of the category of bedbound. What I have become skeptical about are various nostrums people offer which require no thinking on the part of those making recommendations.

 

[Violeta]

I'm saying that most of what we are doing now, and much of what we propose to do, is based on ignorance. I myself have been the subject of numerous uncontrolled experiments with a wide range of approaches, some I barely survived. One thing which caused me to feel better was an implanted vagus nerve stimulator, and that is far from natural. Even so, I still get blank looks from doctors when I talk about correcting dysautonomia and orthostatic intolerance. "Why do you think you need to lie down?" (it had to do with ringing ears and tunnel vision, now my ears ring constantly,) or "Why do you worry about being able to stand up? I don't see any problem." Those who have accused me of "catastrophizing" have learned caution after I had an apparent seizure, an expensive ride to the hospital, and six-months without driving.

I believe there is a solution out there because I did not always feel as bad as I have in recent years, and I know many people who have no problem with the illness that has left me all but housebound.
I've also learned some things that no doctor ever told me, which have moved me out of the category of bedbound. What I have become skeptical about are various nostrums people offer which require no thinking on the part of those making recommendations.

And I'm saying that just because someone might not have found their answer or found a doctor that found their answer, it doesn't mean an answer hasn't been found. Don't give up.

 

[anciendaze]

And I'm saying that just because someone might not have found their answer or found a doctor that found their answer, it doesn't mean an answer hasn't been found. Don't give up.

Thanks. I'm trying hard to hang on until the practice of medicine catches up. My main concern now is for younger people who might be able to avoid the lost decades I've suffered. Realistic appraisal of my personal situation is that I can gain improvements, rather than cures, and spend my declining years a little more actively.

You might understand my reaction to the suggestions you made initially if you had been there when I took a college roommate to the hospital after natural substances had triggered an asthma attack. Some people have responses to things like echinacea that can stop them breathing. Sending flowers to that room would have been worse than embarrassing. Good intentions are not enough.

 

[anciendaze]

Interestingly relevant - i think - study just published in Journal of Medical Microbiology about how Bartonella henselae "can infect and damage endothelial progenator cells". Bartonella is, of course, thought to be a major TBD.

Bartonellosis is as common as "cat scratch fever". It is not always as harmless as presumed. Several species of bartonella can cause endocarditis or myocarditis. B. quintana was the primary cause of trench fever in WWI, and later turned out to be responsible for a series of mysterious deaths of apparently-healthy competitors in the Swedish sport of orienteering. Autopsies showed massive damage to heart left-ventricles, but it was surprising difficult to identify the cause. To my knowledge the vector in those cases was never identified. Another bartonella species is behind Carrion's disease, and the story of how Carrion earned this eponymous honor is worth reading. In areas where the disease is endemic you often find that most infected people are asymptomatic.

This is a single family of bacterial diseases found from the tip of South America to Scandinavia and beyond. Many times, we have not been able to determine cause of death at autopsy -- even when these infections caused serious heart damage. What percentage of unexpected cardiac death is due to such causes? We simply don't know.

Please note that infection by borrelia burghdorferi has also been known to cause death by heart block, and tests for borrelia will not identify bartonella. A test for endothelial dysfunction would be handy to catch such diseases prior to autopsy.

 

[duncan]

Yep, TBD diagnostics are... frustrating.

Of course, I have seen some of the same people who ridicule the concept of chronic Lyme and take offense at the suggestion that the CDC's 2T system has any problems, scoff at the suggestion that Bartonella is also a TBD.